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Originally Posted by Skybird

I wrote: "Secret diplomacy is currently on way, Israel has contacted both Iran and Syria via Germany."I wonder if that really is a compliment for Germany. :hmm:

This alone doesn't say anything special about Germany.

Our timing is badly messed up :smug: I added replies to my previous post.

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Originally Posted by Skybird

there were reports here that Haifa was struck by a missile that was no Kassam or anything like they usually throw at you, but a more sophisticated, precise missile from Iranian production. That is what I meant with two major strikes at Haifa and S.....

Haifa and Safed (Tzefat). That was last week or on Saturday. Apparently a Syrian made Fajr missile. Flip through these for a list of missiles.

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What politicians say their motivation is (our soldiers back) and what it really is about (not needing to confernece with Hamas) are two different things. They often are not in congruence. I stick to my assessement.

You're mixing up 2 front, Gaza and Lebanon. (Jet planes flying overhead now). Hamas is running the PA. Hizballah is running Lebanon - into the ground.

Israel's main focus is still the return of its 3 soldiers.

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Hamas is no line-army, but much a guerilla-sewtup. Iraq has shown how successful one can be in fighting such an organisation. History is filled with example where regular armies failed in fighting insurgents, partisas, guerillas - or such factions with a terrorist background.

We would have much less of a problem if we fought a war with no holds barred.

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You can shoot Lebanon into pieces. Hamas will still be there.

Hizballah.

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What has changed is that they will hide behind smaller stones. As long as you do not strip Lebanon off all rresidents and population, and then dromb a 1000-pounder onto anything left that moves, you will not wi against Hamas.

I agree. That's the only way to do it. Israel is not doing that. We gave Hizballah a whole day's warning in advance to pack out of their southern Beirut HQ before we leveled it. We are dumb! :damn: Dumb! :damn: Dumb! :damn:

Ouch! :doh:

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If there is a lesson to be learned from the constant fighting between Israel and the Palestinians, then this.

You should be addressing my country's politicians and military. As for me, you are preaching to the converted. ;)

hey uber mom... just keep your head down, and those kids safe...

--Mike

All's well south of Afula, thanks, at least so far.

We were just up north vacationing a week and a half ago. Never would have expected all this to happen.

Been very busy doing volunteer work for an organization I work for that assists victims of terror. We are overswamped. :dead:

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Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

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Originally Posted by scandium

Superficially this appears to be just the usual stepped up retaliation against the Palestians, with a bit of a swipe at Lebannon thrown in for good measure.

More idiotic rubbish, as usual, from the same dump.

And as usual you feel it necessary to preface your reply to me with unwarranted insults and barbed comments. :roll:

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Israel left every last centimeter of Gaza last summer, at the expense of destroying vibrant communities, expelling 8000 Israelis and rippping apart the country's morale and political system. Since then the Palis have done nothing but lob rockets into Israel town and communities, stock up Gaza with more weapons and munitions than were smuggled in there over the last 40 years, and continually tried infiltrating into Israel to kill our soldiers and citizens.

Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon 6 years ago and foolishly allowed the Iranian and Syrian backed Hazb'Allah to stock 10s of thousands of rockets, kidnap and kill our soliders and fire at them when Iran or Syria need something to distract international pressure on them.

Now, our soldiers are killed and kidnapped by terrorists infiltrating from both Gaza and Lebanon and you stupidly think this is about "retaliation"? :nope:

You've done a lovely job of painting a very one-sided view of events there Avon.

Let me see if I can encapsulate the current events in a more balanced nutshell (curtesy of the BBC):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm

All quotes are taken from that article:

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July 12: Hezbollah fighters based in southern Lebanon launch Katyusha rockets across the border with Israel, targeting the town of Shlomi and outposts in the Shebaa Farms area.

In a cross-border raid, guerrillas seize two Israeli soldiers before retreating back into Lebanon, insisting on a prisoner exchange and warning against confrontation. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert describes the capture of the soldiers as "an act of war".

In response Israeli planes bomb Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon and troops cross into southern Lebanon for the first time since the military withdrawal of 2000.

However, the troops encounter heavy resistance - eight are killed and two others are injured during fighting with Hezbollah. Israel calls up reserve troops as it pledges a swift and large-scale response to the Hezbollah attack.

Background: Hezbollah was founded in Lebanon in 1982 with the purpose to fight the IDF that at that time, and for 22 years in total, occupied Lebanon. They are considered a legitimate political party in Lebanon, which is a democratic country, and are supported, at least politically if not militarily and finacially (this is disputed) by both Iran and Syria. Of Lebanon's Parliment, the civilian wing of Hezbollah holds 14 out of 128 seats and is responsible for several development and civil service functions - but it does not control the government of Lebanon (half of Lebanon's Parlimentary seats are in fact held by Christians).

Lebanon itself, though still recovering from decades of war and occupation, has been recovering and its probably one of the few democracies in the ME and among the most free (as far as freedom goes in that part of the world). Anyway, this is background.

Summary of July 15th: Lebanese militants launch rockets at an Israel town and outposts; guerillas kidnap two IDF soldiers; ie: a border skirmish conducted by militants without the authorization of the Lebanese government. Israel responds by declaring it an "act" of war and invades Lebanon.

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July 13:

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After a night of Israeli air raids across southern Lebanon, Israeli jets strike the runways at Beirut's international airport in the morning, forcing the airport to close. Reports emerge of significant numbers of civilian casualties in Lebanese towns and villages close to Israeli targets, with at least 35 people reported killed.

As Israel announces an air and sea blockade of Lebanon, insisting that Hezbollah will not be allowed to return to its former position along the international border, world powers react to the escalating crisis.

The US president defends Israel's right to defend itself from attack, but France, Russia and the EU are all critical of a "disproportionate" use of force.

As night falls a rocket hits Israel's third-largest city, Haifa, although Hezbollah denies responsibility."

How does bombing the Lebanese airport get back Israel's kidnapped soldiers, and is the overwhelming use of Israeli military power as used in the bombing and invasion of the war torn fledging democracy that is Lebanon a proportional response to the actions of a handful of Lebanese guerillas?

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July 14:

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Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah promises "open war" against Israel after his offices in Beirut are bombed.

The strikes are part of Israel's ongoing operation against targets across Lebanon.

Bridges, roads and fuel depots are hit, with new strikes against Beirut airport. The number of Lebanese civilians killed in the strikes rises above 50, and the crisis continues to concern international powers.

The UN Security Council in an emergency meeting calls for an end to the Israeli operation, saying it is causing the death of innocent civilians.

Iran's president warns that any Israeli attack on Syria, seen as a sponsor of Hezbollah, will provoke a "fierce response".

No stirring of the cauldron that is the Middle East to be seen here, nope. And despite the wishes of the UNSC - the US, UK, France, Germany, and Russia - it is only Israel's right to use the full force of its military to kill Lebanese civilians and destroy the country's infrastructure, and to hell with what the rest of the world thinks.

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July 15:

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Israel expands its strikes in Lebanon, attacking a large number of targets including, for the first time, the northern port city of Tripoli.

Eighteen Lebanese fleeing a village are killed when their vehicles are struck with missiles on the road to the southern city of Tyre.

The headquarters of Hezbollah are destroyed in southern Beirut.

Hezbollah responds by firing rockets on the town of Tiberias in its deepest attack into Israel so far.

Israel recovers the body of one of four sailors missing after a Hezbollah strike on a navy vessel off the Lebanese coast.

Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa says the Middle East peace process is dead and calls on the UN Security Council to tackle the crisis.

Lebanon's PM says his country is a "disaster zone" and calls for international help.
Speaking ahead of the G8 meeting in St Petersburg , US President George W Bush blames Hezbollah for the crisis and urges Syria to put pressure on the militants.

His host, Russian President Vladimir Putin, is more critical of Israel's massive bombing campaign, saying that the "use of force should be balanced".

For all the ordinance dropped in Isrrael's "massive bombing campaign" they've finally recovered one of their missing soldiers - or rather his body. Yep, this brilliant campaign is yielding the desired results of freeing their kidnapped troops alright.

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July 16:

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Israeli air-raids kill at least 23 people in southern Lebanon, including 16 in the city of Tyre. Seven Canadians of Lebanese origin are killed in a village about 33 miles (50 kilometres) south of Beirut while on a family holiday.

Hezbollah rockets kill eight Israelis in the coastal city of Haifa in the worst attack on Israel since the fighting started.

People living as far south as Tel Aviv are told to be on the alert.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert says the Haifa attack will have "far-reaching consequences".

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah says the battle against Israel is "just at the beginning".

Iran warns Israel that any attack on Syria would incur "unimaginable losses".
Leaders of the G8 nations meeting in St Petersburg blame extremist forces for the crisis, but call on Israel to end military operations.

Seven dead Canadians, killed by an Israeli bombing raid in a country that was not at war with Israel or with anyone else. By Avon's and Israel's standard of conduct Canada, along with the full might of its NATO allies should reciprocate the favour, shouldn't it Avon? Maybe over there anyway. Civilized countries do not behave that way with their democratic neighbours. If they did, then when the allegations that the 19 9/11 hijackers had come into the US through Canada had been reported, the U.S. would have bombed Canada the next day. However in civilized countries things do not work that way; Canada took in the stranded planes on 9/11, worked within NORAD to help secure US airspace, and allied with the US in the War on Terror which we are fighting in Afghanistan.

Israel has to be the bully though and show it has the bigger dick. Screw trying to work peacefully with Lebanon toward a solution to the crisis, screw inserting covert special forces on a search and rescue mission, and screw restraint and proportionality. After all, nothing puts a stop to terrorism better than destroying one of the most progressive and democratic countries in the region and terrorizing and killing its inhabitants through the full might of the IDF. Yep, that'll teach them not to mess with Israel, since the prior war and 22 year occupation hasn't taught every single Lebanese citizen that you don't mess with Israel.

You will reap tomorrow what you sow today.

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Originally Posted by scandium

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Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

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Originally Posted by scandium

Superficially this appears to be just the usual stepped up retaliation against the Palestians, with a bit of a swipe at Lebannon thrown in for good measure.

More idiotic rubbish, as usual, from the same dump.

And as usual you feel it necessary to preface your reply to me with unwarranted insults and barbed comments. :roll:

No. It was warranted. :yep:

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Border skirmishes and kidnapping another country's soldiers are an act of war.

All that quoting for nothing! :roll:

Does it get more exciting than this? Let's see.......................

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July 13:

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Oooh, the poor warn-torn fledgling democracy - controlled by Syria and Iran. Oooooooh I'm gonna cry! Boo hoo! :oops:

Who said anything about proportional, the stupidest leftist word on the Internet at the moment. Oh, was that a barb? Sorry.

I understand that aiports are sometimes used by military forces. But that's just lil' ol' me doing some fancy thinking there.

Moving right along...............

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July 14:

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If the shoe fits. And look at all the hypocrites. US? Russia? We don't come near their massive and non-specific attacks when they deem them necesary (Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya)

As for France, they can go to hell. :rock:

Don't tell us how to take care of ourselves. You've caused enough damage already.

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July 15:

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You've got the wrong soldier. But why trouble yourself with facts and accuracy.

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July 16:

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When you invent the magic weapon that can identify innocent Canadians, call us. We'll be happy to use it. Till then, these are the tragedies which war brings, a war started by Lebanon. Please address our neighbors to the north.

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Maybe over there anyway. Civilized countries do not behave that way with their democratic neighbours.

Civilized democratic countries don't have parties in Parliament calling for the annihilation of their neighboring country, provided with sophisticated weaponry from rogue regimes including Iran, Syria and North Korea and jump into other countries to kill soldier, and civilians and kidnap them for ransom, too.

Thank G-d normal people do not want to live in your lunatic world.

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If they did, then when the allegations that the 19 9/11 hijackers had come into the US through Canada had been reported, the U.S. would have bombed Canada the next day.

Is Al Qaeda an accepted party of Canada's government, given support, sanctuary and weapons by Canada? Just let us know.

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However in civilized countries things do not work that way; Canada took in the stranded planes on 9/11, worked within NORAD to help secure US airspace, and allied with the US in the War on Terror which we are fighting in Afghanistan.

Go Canada! :up:

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Israel has to be the bully though and show it has the bigger dick. Screw trying to work peacefully with Lebanon toward a solution to the crisis, screw inserting covert special forces on a search and rescue mission, and screw restraint and proportionality. After all, nothing puts a stop to terrorism better than destroying one of the most progressive and democratic countries in the region and terrorizing and killing its inhabitants through the full might of the IDF. Yep, that'll teach them not to mess with Israel, since the prior war and 22 year occupation hasn't taught every single Lebanese citizen that you don't mess with Israel.

You will reap tomorrow what you sow today.

Indeed we will. We reaped yesterday what was sown in Israel's retreat from S. Lebanon 6 years ago. Thanks for the lesson! :know:

(What a waste of pixels!)

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Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Oooh, the poor warn-torn fledgling democracy - controlled by Syria and Iran. Oooooooh I'm gonna cry! Boo hoo! :oops:

Watch Brigitte who currently says thank you, Israel.

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And look at all the hypocrites. US? Russia? We don't come near their massive and non-specific attacks when they deem them necesary (Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya)

As for France, they can go to hell. :rock:

Suggested reading: Axis of Hypocrisy

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/9...spoonsxsf9.gif

Must be going. If there's any more BBC blah-blah, it'll have to wait till tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

No. It was warranted. :yep:

It wasn´t. What kind of language you use outside of this forum is none of our business, but here at Subsim.com there are certain rules. Though I´m 100% sure that you already know the forum rules I strongly suggest that you read them again, especially this part:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq....ules3_faq_item

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Originally Posted by Skybird

Iraq has shown how successful one can be in fighting such an organisation. History is filled with example where regular armies failed in fighting insurgents, partisas, guerillas - or such factions with a terrorist background.

As long as you do not strip Lebanon off all rresidents and population, and then dromb a 1000-pounder onto anything left that moves, you will not wi against Hamas.

We had actually decimated the Vietcong after the Tet Offensive, and some VC general said exactly this much back in the early 90's during an interview (why, yes, he managed to stay alive under communism). It was the old media who ran with the story (that the "war" was "unwinnable") and patted themselves on the back for it. It's like the guy who manages to get your project de-funded and it gives him some sense of power.

As for displacing the population, I agree with your strategy. We displaced the populations in Germany, and that's what helped our ground troops. You bomb the hell out of the cities, and force everyone into the countryside; and then you shut down communications between large masses. They'll use carrier pigeons and lasers if you hunt EMF (electromotive force; any kind of radio, including radar), Hunting laser is a bit tough, but it can be done and it's still limited to line-of-sight, because if they try to bank off a cloud or a balloon, a Predator drone will jump out of a bowl of rice and bust a cap in them.

I would suggest Israel uses it's nukes before the "use by" date runs out. :lol: By the way...I'd use 'em just to see how pretty they are. ;)

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Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

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Originally Posted by scandium

Oooh, the poor warn-torn fledgling democracy - controlled by Syria and Iran. Oooooooh I'm gonna cry! Boo hoo! :oops:

Okay, then if they were controlled by Syria and Iran then where is the Iranian and Syrian response? Nowhere to be seen because Lebanon is an independent democracy while both Syria and Iran are neither. That isn't to say Lebanon doesn't have strong political and economic ties with its neighbours - but what country doesn't? That doesn't equate "control".

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Who said anything about proportional, the stupidest leftist word on the Internet at the moment. Oh, was that a barb? Sorry.

When did "proportional" become the domain of the left? Back in the 60s we had our problem with a terrorism organization based out of Quebec called the FLQ, whose agenda was, through militant action, the overthrow of the Quebec government and the seperation of Quebec from Canadian Confederation. From 1963 to 1970 the FLQ committed over 200 acts of violence including bombings, bank robberies, and killings. In October of 1970 they separately kidnapped 2 prominent politicians who they would release only if outrageous demands were met. One week after the second kidnapping the 2nd hostage was killed, and the location of his body was divulged by the kidnappers.

Two months later police discovered the location of the kidnappers who were holding the first hostage, who was still alive, and his release was negotiated. As a condition of the hostages release, we granted safe passage for 5 of the terrorists to Cuba, after obtaining permission from Fidel Castro. Over time various other terrorists associated with crimes committed by the FLQ were caught, tried, convicted, and imprisoned. And that was the end of the FLQ as the events of the October Crisis, combined with the apprehension/deportation of its most prominent members eroded any sympathy for their cause or efforts to recruit new members.

I bring this up to illustrate the concept of proportionality and why it is important; during the October Crisis the Canadian government's actions accomplished the release of the surviving hostage and removed the perpetrators/ring leaders from our society but in a manner that did not create support for the FLQ - in fact, its moderation in the face of their extremism was a factor in the FLQ's demise. Would the movement have died though if we had responded by arbitrarily rounding up random Quebecers and shooting them in Town's Square, proclaiming we would continue to do so until our hostages were released? Of course not, aside from being morally abominable it would have only stirred up outrage in Quebec and played right into the FLQ's hands. We would never have gotten the hostage back and only incited the FLQ to commit worse crimes and for more people to flock to their ranks.

By the way, are you familiar with the 1942 assassination of Reinhard Heydrich bya pair of Czech nationals and the events that followed? At any rate, Heydrich was the administrator of occupied Bavaria and Moravia and his assassination did not go over well with Hitler who instructed the SS and Gestapo to wade through blood to find the killers, and wade through blood they did. The village of Lidice was one casualty of the collective punishment meted out by his underlings, who completedly destroyed the village and murdered its 340 men, women, and children. But then being fascists, what little use would they have for leftest concepts handed out on the internet like "proportionality"? I mean the internet didn't even exist back then. Curiously enough though Stalin, who is as extreme on the left as you go, didn't seem to have much use for proportionality either, as he sent millions off to die in the Gulags for such crimes as political or religious dissent. But then the internet didn't exist back then either, so we can excuse his behaviour since proportionality would have been a foreign concept to people back then. But I digress.

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I understand that aiports are sometimes used by military forces. But that's just lil' ol' me doing some fancy thinking there.

What airforce? And it was a civilian airport by the way.

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And look at all the hypocrites. US? Russia? We don't come near their massive and non-specific attacks when they deem them necesary (Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya)

You won't find an apologist for Russia's overseas adventures or America's war in Iraq, and I agree that they are hypocrits. But this thread isn't about Iraq or Afghanistan, and you are now engaging in the very same relativist thinking that you and Skybird are forever accusing me off. The only thing I'll say on that is that the American firebombing of Dresden was no defence for those tried at Nuremburg.

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When you invent the magic weapon that can identify innocent Canadians, call us. We'll be happy to use it.

They might not have been there if you hadn't first bombed the Lebanese International Airport - but who needs civilian Airports anyway? Aside from non-existant Air Forces.

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Allow me to break this run-on sentence down point by point:

#1 is a red herring. Israel occupied Lebanon for 22 years and Hezobollah formed for the very purpose of fighting the IDF that was occupying Lebanon. And if we go back to the time of the British Mandate, your own history isn't so clean when Israeli militant factions were attacking the British in what was then Palestine while the British were busy fighting the Nazis in Europe - and this was before Israel formally even existed. Sure Israel is no longer occupying Lebanon now, but is it realistic to expect that every militant in the country would simply pack up their weapons and take up farming only 6 years after the IDF has left, and forgetting all of the anger and resentment that a 22 year occupation would fuel? Not really. Further, this party occupies only 11% of Parliment so they are hardly representative of the Lebanese government, let alone the entire nation of Lebanon. Then there is the whole freedom of speech thing, and the fact that it even extends to members of parliment for whom rhetoric is part of the job description.

#2 As to the weapons arguement, that is another red herring. Rockets are not terribly sophisticated, and the U.S. sells arms that really are sophisticated to such progressive nations as Saudi Arabia, while democracies like Russia and France do extensive business with both Syria and Iran so what impossible standard are you trying to hold Lebanon to?

#3 Again, an act by guerillas for which any case has been made that their actions were ordered, or even on behalf, of the Lebanese government. I mentioned the FLQ, which at one point in their existance - before the plot was discovered - had planned to blow up the Statue of Liberty. Fortunately this did not happen because I like France, the US, NY, and the Statue of Liberty. But suppose the FLQ had succeeded - what do you think the appropriate US response would have been? Certainly a lot of Americans would have been justifiably pissed off, but would they have been justified to bomb and invade Canada? No, nor would they have (I have enough respect for my American neighbours to give them the benefit of the doubt).

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Thank G-d normal people do not want to live in your lunatic world.

Okay. Odd that you say this because in my "lunatic world" I can walk the street, any street in this city, at any hour of the day or night, and unarmed always, without worrying that I will be killed or mugged or blown up or even hasseled by police, and where no walls exist, no checkpoints exist, and no 2nd class of citizens to be feared exists. If this is a "lunatic world" that I live in then I don't want to know what your definition of a sane one is, though I strongly believe the actions your government is taking right now in Lebanon will not help matters much for you. Quite the contrary, in fact.

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Is Al Qaeda an accepted party of Canada's government, given support, sanctuary and weapons by Canada? Just let us know.

The FLQ never gained accepted party status, its militant nature having been defeated by reasonable, rational measures, but the part of their ideology - that which sought seperation from Canada - lives on, in a peaceful spirit, within one of our 4 major national parties and within its sister provincial party in Quebec. Both parties are not only accepted, but have considerable political power as well both provincially in Quebec and to a lesser extent federally. Things could have turned out very differently, of course, and I have no doubt that had we dealt with the FLQ the way you folks deal with things over there then the FLQ would still exist and Canada would resemble a very different place today. Not that I'm not sympathetic to your situation, only that I am turned off by your methods.

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Indeed we will. We reaped yesterday what was sown in Israel's retreat from S. Lebanon 6 years ago. Thanks for the lesson!

From the retreat, or from the 22 year long occupation?

errr...Scandium...I didn't read all your post, but AV says "Israel bombed the Lebanese airport because they were using it for it's military forces"...and you answer "What airforce?". :lol:

See this is all pub talk...cos if it was serious...you'd have people wetting themselves from laughter.

You do realise you can pack militia into an Airbus 330? Or planes carrying weapons from Iran can land and arm terrorists that way?

If I was heading Israel, I'd take Gazza (back), Palestine, Lebanon and Syria...then I'd sue for peace through the UN. Why not? It's a good idea!!! :arrgh!: Then in a year I'd take Iran. :up:

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Originally Posted by Kurushio

What's your point Kurushio? The U.S. captured the Iraqi airport and ports within a matter of weeks, if not days, and then captured Baghdad and occupied the country with a 180,000 strong force within 6 weeks, and how's that working out as far as militias, terrorists, and weapons goes? Do yourself a favour, turn on the news and listen to Rumsfeld go on about the "foreign terrorists" swarming in over the Syrian border (and who knows from where else, but certainly not from the airport) and then look at a map and notice that Syria also borders Lebanon. Then ask yourself if you need an international airport to bring in supplies that can more easily be driven across the border.

Bombing their international airport served no military purpose whatsoever. Period. Lebanon, after decades of civil war and occupation has been finally beginning to achieve the very stability, democracy, and some small measure of prosperity and human rights that the U.S. claimed it was intent on bringing to Iraq and now thanks to a handful of extremists and the Israel and its IDF, this could all be for naught. And what does the US, which pretends to be so concerned about democracy in the ME say or do about it? Why it unconditially supports Israel of course.

"Democracries don't go to war with each other." -- G.W. Bush

There will never be peace when nations like Iran and Syria fund terrorist organisations. There will also never be peace when nations like Iran and Syria make it official policy to wipe Israel off the map. I think we should let Israel use it's nukes and army, and see how far it goes. If it was the other way around, they'd have done it already. Just nuke the bastards, invade their land and be done with it....then finally we can have some peace. Problem solved.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5193228.stm.

"Negotiate with Hezbollah." - Some never learn, even after years of attempts that failed and fired back - at the cost of Israel.

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Originally Posted by Kurushio

I think we should let Israel use it's nukes and army, and see how far it goes. If it was the other way around, they'd have done it already. Just nuke the bastards, invade their land and be done with it....then finally we can have some peace. Problem solved.

Sorry, just curious but......do you really feel what you wrote?

sorry... i've attempted to stay out of this so far, but i also would like to know if your were serious about that as well...

also, is karusio a japanese name, word, or whatever...

--Mike

This is from Djihadwatch, but before anyone thinks he must put it down becasue of that, the quoted articles - as so often - have diffrent primary sources: The Washington Post.

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Richard Cohen: Israel a "mistake"; should retreat to pre-'67 borders, "hunker down," and wait

Richard Cohen's suggested strategy for achieving peace among Israel and its neighbors shows the hazards of basing foreign policy on revisionist history. From the Washington Post (via LGF): "Hunker Down With History", with thanks to Hugh Fitzgerald:

The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now. Israel fights Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south, but its most formidable enemy is history itself.

This is why the Israeli-Arab war, now transformed into the Israeli-Muslim war (Iran is not an Arab state), persists and widens. It is why the conflict mutates and festers. It is why Israel is now fighting an organization, Hezbollah, that did not exist 30 years ago and why Hezbollah is being supported by a nation, Iran, that was once a tacit ally of Israel's. The underlying, subterranean hatred of the Jewish state in the Islamic world just keeps bubbling to the surface. The leaders of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and some other Arab countries may condemn Hezbollah, but I doubt the proverbial man in their street shares that view.

Never mind the fall of the Shah, and the Islamist takeover of Iran. Put the highlighter down; that's not important.

[...]

There is, though, a point in cautioning Israel to exercise restraint -- not for the sake of its enemies but for itself. Whatever happens, Israel must not use its military might to win back what it has already chosen to lose: the buffer zone in southern Lebanon and the Gaza Strip itself.

[...]

But worse than what is happening now would be a retaking of those territories. That would put Israel smack back to where it was, subjugating a restless, angry population and having the world look on as it committed the inevitable sins of an occupying power. The smart choice is to pull back to defensible -- but hardly impervious -- borders. That includes getting out of most of the West Bank -- and waiting (and hoping) that history will get distracted and move on to something else. This will take some time, and in the meantime terrorism and rocket attacks will continue.

How's that for strategy? Retreat and hope.

The remainder of Cohen's piece proceeds as something of a non sequitur-- a few historical anecdotes, and it ends. Fortunately, Israel Matsav has supplied a thorough rebuttal (see "A History Lesson"; thanks again to LGF and Hugh Fitzgerald):

At Little Green Footballs this morning, Charles Johnson points to an article in today's Washington Post with the comment, "At the Washington Post, Richard Cohen agrees with Hamas and Hizballah that 'Israel is a mistake.' And he’s open to the argument that Israel is a 'crime.'"

If that sounds like an overly blunt characterization of what Cohen wrote in this morning's Washington Post, it's not. Cohen's article reflects a total ignorance of Jewish history, and of the Jewish connection to the land of Israel dating back to biblical times, which is inexcusable even for an assimilated Jew (which I assume Cohen to be). In fact, even Christians should be offended by Cohen's writing them out of the history of the Holy Land. Cohen adopts the Arab narrative of the last century of history lock, stock and barrel, without even considering that it might be false. Note, I said Arab and not 'Palestinian,' because the 'Palestinians' by their own admission are a fiction created by that Arab narrative.

The term "Palestina" was invented by the Roman emperor Hadrian. The Romans wanted to rename Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) after the Philistines, the longtime enemy of the Jews. Hadrian believed that by renaming the Jewish homeland after the Jews' archenemy, he would be able to forever break the bond between the Land of Israel and the Jewish people.

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The rest of Cohen's argument is standard leftist drivel about how Israel has to 'hunker down' and allow itself to be beaten rather than decisively winning a war (and that's what we're in now) and being able to find peace on its own terms. The fact that Israel has tried to 'hunker down' and give away its territory time and time again in a bid to make 'peace' with the 'Palestinians' - and that the 'Palestinians' and their Arab supporters have come back to fight another day each time - shows the fecklessness of that policy. It's very simple: the Arabs will not willingly tolerate any Jewish presence in this part of the world. There is no amount of land that we can give them that will entice them to live in peace with us. Until we decisively defeat them, they will come back to fight another day and another day. There is no need to give any more of an answer than that.

Israel is neither a mistake nor a crime. It is the beginning of the culmination of more than 2000 years of Jewish yearning to return to our homeland. The manner in which the Jewish people has chosen to govern the Land of Israel has its faults. But being a 'mistake' created in 'Arab land' - let alone being a 'crime' - is not among those faults. We Jews have to learn to stop listening to liberals like Cohen and to start fighting - with God's help - for our existence. Hopefully, the current battle marks a turning point.

Read it all, especially the superb set of quotations of primary sources.
Posted at July 18, 2006 05:52 PM

A year or longer ago I myself questioned the wisdom and justice of having founded Israel in the way it has been done in1948, and nthat it was the most stupid places to do that. but i also said that neervtheless today I recognize the right to exist, on the basis of one argument: time. One could question the existence of Israel, if the founding ofd it would have been just 5 years ago. But after 60 years, two generations already have been born - and died - in it and for it. Questioning Israel today would repeat the very same injustice that took place in 48 and would mean that one has not learned anything from that. So now that it is there since that long, the only choice is to make the best of it. I may have doubts about it's longterm survivability, but these do not come from moral scruples, but simple strategic considerations. Israel does exist at the cost of eternal war, in a very exposed position.

I recommend to use the link to Israel Matzev'S reply, which is quite some interesting history stuff.