It's funny that I, of all people, should have to pipe up here and ask what you are referring to?

It's been a long time since I can recall forced conversions to Christianity ("kiss the cross or kiss the sword"). Where is this happening today? On what original Christian doctrines was it base upon in yesteryears when this was widespread?

Are you sure such born again Christians view everyone else as enemies, and not as sinners or lost souls or on the wrong path? These do not have the same connotation as the word "enemy."

I stopped reading the rest when I realized that, rather than debating the merits of the Arch Bishop's suggestions, or offering your own as an alternative and when I realized this was only another rant aimed at my "ignorance" of Islam from Subsim's resident armchair Quarterback (only this Quarterback prefers to complain about the tactics of the other team, that before the game the other team prays to the wrong God, and that the leftist referees are biased) rather than what strategies and tactics are necessary to defeat the other team.

Skybird, you keep saying I'm the enemy yet you never elaborate on what exactly I'm getting in the way of. This makes it hard to take you seriously (and I'm finding this harder and harder every day as you simply put up today's hate piece but without ever adding anything constructive to it).

Adapt or lose.

absolutely sure..sad to say--and getting gradually more extreme every day..i've had some experience with these groups--it's hard to find a church these days (even traditional low key churchs) that haven't fallen victim to the drive for hard core right wing religion--we don't need to look at the more extreme groups in America for example--they are only limited by what they feel they can get away with--most local born again churches here in england seriuosly believe that they are the only people who have the doctrine right--even to the extent that they preach that to attend a church of a similar doctrine just yards down the road would be to "go to hell"..i'm not kidding it really is that surreal--given time it will even become dangerous--as this mentality once properly unleashed is completely with-out rational boundaries---they are extremely right wing and know no law other than that is preached from the pulpit on sunday services--sounds silly doesn't it--but it's not

the terrorist follow exactly the same thinking...convert or destroy --nothing else matters

I once had a prof for social psychology. One day I met him in the university restaurant, and we talked and he learned that I have done 17 years of Wing Tsun and Japanese swordfighting, with real swords, I mean. Being a sports pistol shooter himself he was so fascinated that immediately his academical theory-generator, his brain, went into active mode, and the next half of an hour he explained me the differences between Wing Tsun und Karate. It was ridiculous nonsens what he said, total crap, but it became more and more complex a theory - his theory on what he imagines WT and Karate would be. In the end I learned from his mouth, what I knew all the time: he never had practiced neither WT nor Karate nor any other Martial Arts himself.

He looked a bit irritated when at the end I asked him if he ever has seen the movie "Karate Kid" :lol:

No wonder that I smiled all the time but did not take him serious. As long as he wouldn'T have started training himself, all attempts by me to explain him what it is, and what nonsens it is that he is talking would have been in vain, and would only offended him. He nevertheless would have lacked the basis to understand what I was about.

It's exactly the same with you. You cannot expect people to take your opinion on Islam for serious, as long as you indicate in almost every reply that your knowledge on Islam is so small that it hinders you to form an opinion on Islam. That AL has more understanding of it is obvious, and expolains itself, considering her status. I myself will not excuse or justify myself for having learned about it by reading a lot of books, and having made many experiences in Muslim countries myself. I also do not intend to sit down for hours and write a book abit it, just for you. Far better books are already available, if only you would open your eyes. I have linked you to a list with recommended basic readinfs some weeks ago. Your private little fantasy that is running inside your head simply is not anything that could replace reality. And as we have seen in the past, you do not care for hints and links and suggestions, and often ignore them.

And then you complain that people do not spend the time with you anymore...???

Adapt or lose!

Skybird, again you dodge the question. What is the solution to the problem of Islam?

That indeed, is a good question. All that has been done so far haven't helped, the fundamental islamic movement is strong and growing stronger day by day.

So there's not much of options left. The last one is civil war.

Markus

Come on..everyone is the enemy?...Being a "Born Again" Christian, I don't look at people not "Born Again" as the enemy but as potential harvest...:)...Christianity teaches...if you read it yourself CB....which I suggest you do so you would know what the Bible really says and you would find throughout a resounding theme..."Love"....love does not demand it's own way...is longsuffering bears all in silence.It is written in the bible I read Christ came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance....at the end of the last book of the Bible it Clearly says...Let him that is holy be holy still,he that is whole let him be whole still,he that is evil let him be evil still.Free Will has been Gods command from the Begining to the End my friend."Born Again" Christians believe a way back to the grace of God was provided by Jesus Christ and any who "Choose" to pick up there cross and follow the way that was shown by Christ will have life eternal in paradise...Paid in full by blood and body of the Son of God Himself.....no one is supposed to force anyone and can't...it is a personal choice and those who choose another path are pitied not despised by Christians but hey...it is there choice...hell never closes.

Every tree is known by it's fruit so is a church or a person. You decide what is right.

There isn't a politically correct answer for that problem and you know it.

Still wondering, I see. You need it all on a silver plate brought to you, so that you can take it and throw it out of the window.

Stop propagating it, stop playing into it's hands and get the public informed about it's content, history and teachings by sources that are not under Islamic influence would be a good start!!! :up: ;) Get people start thinking and asking questions, instead of echoing empty phrases of those who want Islam, for whatever a reason, amnd embrace a conqueror for a mistaken understanding of tolerance or mutli-culti.

The rest then would come by itself. Enforcing colonists to fully integrate or to leave. Enforcing to give up any reservations to western values as the leading cultures in the West, and make acdcepting them legally binding, by threat of removing zhem if they don't. Sending them back if they violate our value system and legal rules, instead of endlessly keeping them here and "assist" them to do better next time, which in most cases they don't since they are pushing their own clture instead. Changing constitutions that way that Islam cannot claim protection of free practice of religion anymore - because in reality it pushes in fact a political agenda aiming at the destruction of these constitutional orders. Demanding Muslims to unconditionally surrender to local traditions, laws, education goals, school systems, cultural values and habits if they want to live in our middle (I mean, no one forces them to come here, and they also have no right to demand they should be accepted here if we do not want them: it's our homes, not theirs.). When they do not want to become one of us, but want to keep for themselves, why the ehll are they co,ming to us, then? Stop further Muslim immigration in general. Reject paying ongoing financial support that in return is spend by them to further increase Muslim networks in Europe that are designed to strnegthen Islam in Eurpe and overcome christzian and Wetsern order. Bannig Sharia completely, unconditionally. Monitoring mosques. Encourage leaving Europe. Discourage coming to Europe. Stop playing soft on the deceptions of history that Islam is used to. Confront "moderates" directly with the contradictions of wanting to be Muslims but claiming to already refuse certain values of it. And so on, and so on.

Don't try removing regimes in Muslim countries that are strong enough to fight against Islam clerics coming to power. Stop wanting to democratize such countries -and by that creating the free space the clerics need to come to power, like is happening in Egypt, has happened again in Iran, and in a way also in Turkey, and obviously: Iraq. confronting all Muslim countries over the tens of thousands of Christians and Jews that get killed in their realms every year, according to the secret service of the Vatican (almost all Muslims countries are affected by this by varying degrees). Sanction all countries that do not actively and with all strength engage in stopping the murdering of christians and priests in their countries. Implement the principle of reciprocity: do not treat islam in the West any better than foreign cultures are treated in Muslim countries. If they do continue with the centuries-old ethnic cleansing (and that it is, nothing else), then drive Muslim populations in Europe out as well. Do them like they do us.

All this will not happen too well, since Islam cannot tolerate any of these demands without giving up itself and it's mission: gaining control about all world and all mankind. That's no phobia, that is theological and political fact. It's a predatory ideology, formed by a predatory bandit, in a war-torn environment, never forget that.

And of course: getting independent from Muslim oil within a reasonable timeframe. that should have been a priority since the oil ciriss int he early 70s. Stopping weapon and technology transfers into Muslims countries. Stop political classes that do not actively engage in this, or even want to prevent it.

In brief summary - you'll hate it, since you have too many illusions abou the reasonability and kindliness of islam and do not understand the true nature of our enemy. ;) You think of Islam as somehting like ourselves, just Muslim instead of western. And that is your grwta mistake, coming from your tendency to level out differences and make it appear to be on same level and of same worth and value. Hitler admired Muhammad for his ruthlessness and unscrupulousness, he is quoted like that by historians. That should tell you something.

In principle, since democracy and Western value-canon, and Islam are totally incompatible, it is about Islam in the West not longer being Islam.
But I am sorry that I cannot explain why I want all these things happening, and nothing less. that way it all must appear to you as very intolerant and racist and nationalistic. But that is because a deficit on your side, not on mine.

You got your will fulfilled, and for the second time although you refuse to accept that, now get what is more important - get some books: history, Muhammad's historical biography and personality, Comments and comparisons of social community in Islam, politics, and theology, introduction to Quran and Hadith, Sira would not do any damage. History is the most important for you, since you said it yourself: judge them by their deeds, not their words. It's the greatest conquest by violence story ever.

I'm sure you hate almost everything I said here, and will clean it off the table as blind ignorrance, intolerant racism, stupid narrow-mindedness or whatever. And when I say that Islam is even more dnagerous than the Nazis were, you cannot underatand it. Becasue you still do not know Islam well enoiugh. The deficit is not on my side, or AL's, but yours. Your view on Islam, and Islam's reality, are incompatible, and lead you consequently to wrong assumptions about how to deal with it. It'S often done, but I agree on that: today's western policies on Islam are like chamberlains appeasemnt of Hitler. But Hitler just wanted a huge part of the world, and wanted to erase all Jews. Islam wants all world, and erase everyone that is not Muslim.

Nice summary of what I put into far more words. :yep: You certainly are more word-economical than I am. Maybe I am just too unstructured. :lol:

I find it funny that people think that Islamic militants are no big deal. Just let them blow up everything, right? To be naive and think they are no threat to ones person is to be an ostrich and bury ones head in the sand. Speakaing about naive, that has got to be the most naive statement ever posted on this board. It is written in their religious law that you are the infidel if you study any religion or no religion at all other than Islam. It is their duty to destroy you and in doing so, it will sucure a place for them in heaven beside Allah. One more thing, no matter how people want to twist it, Mohammed did not write his book, Allah did, and there is no room for interpretation. Period.

However - One must be wary about the focus on these militants however since they could never pose anywhere near as much of a threat as a state could. Iran, NK, and especially China.

-S

I didn't say it had to be politically correct, only that it had to be effective. And as to what I "know", I already have in mind a solution that has been endrsed by those leftist over at the Economist- so its a little presumptuous to presume what I do and do not know, not that this has ever stopped anyone here before.

Then please share it with us. I sure as hell can't think of a politically correct solution. And yes it does have to be politically correct in order for it to be used. If you have a solution why haven't you voiced it long ago?
That is what makes me a little presumptuous.

Yeah, there is a slight difference in the average length of comments. :D

Because I've suspected that the Islamophobe crowd here is long on rhetoric and short on solutions, but I wanted to give them a chance to prove me wrong first. This is a lengthy article with mixed messages I find, in that they don't make any attempt to varnish the truth and nor do they resort to the one sided, often distorted, hysteria that is the norm for Jihadwatch and its ilk. Also they don't offer anything cut and dried, but it is food for thought and nothing radical:

Anyway the link to it: http://www.economist.com/world/displ...ory_id=7081343

Last night we watched Albert Finney portraying Winston Churchill in "The Gathering Storm."

I couldn't help but imagine Scandium's soulmates as the members of Baldwin's Conservative Party, howling with laughter and taunting Churchill from the benches, as Churchill warned Britain with great accuracy what was to be their fate, should they continue to disregard the blatant signs of Nazi Germany's plans and intent of conquest.

History repeats itself.

Yada, yada, yada!

Here's another Islamophobe: Omar Bakri. And he says nothing new, that hasn't been said by numerous Islamic preachers world-wide: