How did I miss another hack at the VII/IX debate? Maybe I'm still learning to read this new forum style. Anyway - Ducimus - if you want to sail over open seas, for weeks at a time, then you need an IX (except when Milkcows are about). I do envy the ability to hunt regularly off of Halifax because I find the fattest convoys there. You're right - there is a different feel in the IX - running on the surface for long periods, unchallenged, into strange distant areas with sporadic single merchant contacts is a different vibe altogether. The problem is that I find no thrill or challenge in hunting single merchants. You can't get killed doing it, even if you surface and fight it out with the DG. Single merchants (or even small convoys) can't kill you. And there's no real need for stealth - I'll often sail up to single merchants, discover they are unarmed, and line up a shot abeam while surfaced in full view. No problem. They sink, I continue. In an IX you have to be resigned to death by air attack; the one time that the sunderland or liberator gets lucky and bombs you dead on. I need convoy attacks. I don't care to wait for hours under time compression for them. Why travel across the altantic when everything you could ask for is floating in the western approaches? I leap out of biscay and grab the first convoy I find and beat it down. If patrol requires then I'll head down to the Gibraltar approach. Or even out to the mid atlantic if required. Wherever there are convoys. With convoys, there are escorts, and they can destroy you. That's the challenge that makes it worth while. Death by air attack seems too chancy; I need the strategic convoy hunt, the surprise attack, the relentlessly cruelty of DCing and the honourable death that follows, which is best met in the VII.

:D

Kb

It's not a debate, and why do you always assume that you dont attack convoys in an IX boat? Quite the contrary.


For instance, heres a typical submerged attack, one of my favorites, ill get inside the bloody convoy. Ill do this as late as 44.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/convoy_attack_1.JPG
Assuming i use two torpedos per target (mediem cargo), thats 3 ships sunk. or more if i shoot at smaller merchants.


Heres a typical night surface attack, OR any attack where you coudlnt get inside the convoy.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/convoy_attack_2.JPG


One of these days your going to wake up and realize anybody can attack a convoy. The size of the boat doesnt mean jack squat in SH3. Ive done everything i can to get the AI to put up more of a fight and most of the time the convoy escorts are fools. Up until mid 43, Id say only 3 or 4 out of 10 convoy attacks would acutally result in a depth charging. Late war, like it or not, i can still get away. On top of all this , you have more fuel and more torpedos. You can execute convoy attacks along longer.

And, you know convoys leave halifax right? just a stones throw from New york. Theres also a couply convoys in the caribean, and some also leave the freetown area.


edit: and truth be told, convoy attacks are almost as boring as single merchants. Its the same story every time.

1. Radio report, plot course, speed, distance.
2. Set intercept course, arrive at appointed time.
3. Get on their track submerged or surface
4. Get solution, fire torpedos.
5. Run away to reload.
6. go to 3

rinse and repeat until your out of fish, or the escorts get somethign resembeling a clue.

I spotted a merchant in the Caribbean. Since it was unarmed I closed to attack it with my deck gun. Before I got close enough I was pounced on by aircraft, ones I presume the merchant had alerted. So cruising up to lone ships is definitely not a good idea.

As for aircraft and the Type IX. You've just got to take care basically. In areas with patrol planes then stay submerged during the day. Getting Metox and using the sensorpak mod also means that even a Type IX can pick up radar signals and get well under before they arrive. If they surprise you then man the flak guns, hit flank speed and make a turn. Once it's flown over then dive, and again there's enough time to get under.

I survived an attack by 6 aircraft in my IXC, and had no time to dive. They worked in pairs, one pair attacked while the others turned and began their own attack runs. I took only minor damage but it was getting so damned hot that I just had to crash dive - even though two planes were on an attack run. I made it down and evaded them. This is using the airpower mod that came with HT!

Right now I love my IXC and the distant patrols. You do also run into convoys off the coast of Africa, or over on the US coast. So it's not all single ships. But I do want to do a Med campaign, using the beautiful light blue water contained in a mod (I forget which). So after the war ends, or I die, I'll be in a Type VII. I wonder how long I'll last before I hear the call of the Caribbean and its lovely fat tankers:arrgh!:

HK groups are always fun too. :rotfl:

So much was lost when they decided Wolfpacks would be too hard to put in.

IX is a larger number then VII and II, but not as large as XXI. Case closed. Logic. :smug:

Why the big jump for a IXD2 you all know that monster of a boat takes around 45 secs to hit pd?
Beutiful boat thogh I love it all them lovely patrols to SA (1 nasty slog it takes forever) just got into the 2 flotilla drivin a IXB won't be very long before a IXD2 is available but this time am going to play it different and see what happens NY is a good place to visit once in a while but it does get boreing after a bit.Now Port of Spain different subject especially if your in the choke point and that nifty convoy spouts up it has no chance.(but neither have you if you get detected).
Ix boats yeah will go for them all the time more fish bigger range cons slow dive times.

I too, love the bigger boats. Currently running an IXB career Summer 1940. Hope to transfer to an IXC in 1941. Love the distant patrols and independent operations. :yep:

Being a Chicago boy, I have visited the U-505 many times, A real war craft. Also visited the U.S.S Pampanito in San Francisco. It is like a 747 in comparison to the U-505.

I too, will buy SH4, but I fear it will be too easy....a permanent happy time for the U.S.N:nope:

Ducimus - just buggin ya - i like the diagrams. IX boats are cool too.
:)
Kb

Edit: On the other hand, that strategy you've drawn will get you detected - by the time you swing around to pull the aft torpedo attack the escorts will have converged based on your first attack. You would be wise to fire all tubes simultaneously, perhaps 4 at the center column and two at the second or third column out, and then proceed forward quickly through the convoy to clear the datum. Just a thought.

My awesome skills in MS paint! lol. ya i know your just buggin me. We seem to have this friendly "My boat has a bigger *** then your boat!" competition thing going on. :rotfl:

In the first diagram, i acutally do shoot all 6 torpedos at once... or rather.. i *try* to shoot them all at once. You still have to readjust your solution for the other end of the boat. Notice the angle i put the boat in, thats deliberate. Ive found at that angle to their track, i can shoot all my fish at around the same moment in time. The only limitation being how fast i can switch setups from bow to stern or vice versa.

The second attack, say night surface, thats usually at about a 2000-3000 meter distance. You shoot your stern fish on the way out, your range is sometimes around say.... 1600 or so because your shooting at almost a straight 90, which shortens the torpedo track. If its a submerged attack, then its a gamble if late war. Once you shoot your first 4 fish, your gambling on the destroyers not finding you right away, and you have two choices. Ahead 1/3rd and take your time on that turn, but be quiet about it - you'll likley catch the last ship in the colum by the time your stern tubes come to bear, or you can do a quick flank and turn faster, but risk drawing the escorts to you. Which you do, depends on the situation at hand, and just how badly you want to get those stern fish in the water.

Mine has a taller periscope. :rotfl:

Snorkel too.:88)

I saw the USS Intrepid in New Jersey, and there was also a 60s or 70's nuclear sub there, but the Intrepid was what drew me to Naval interest in the first place. I always wanted to be a fighter pilot to be honest.

Anyone know what the Nuc Sub in NewJersey museum is called?

How did i miss this. :D


Anyway, to put US Gato class subs in perspective, i think most everyone would agree that in SH3, IX boats are big, and IXD2's are damn near sea cows unto themselves. The kicker is, an IXD2 is slightly smaller then a WW2 US fleet boat!

Oh - cool cool. I still think the side escort will detect you when you swing around. Rather - position yourself parallel to the convoy path, turn slightly in (like 10 degrees), fire all fore tubes, turn 20 degrees back away, fire both back tubes, and then run. With your second attack plan, the convoy will swerving at 2-3km after the first 4 hits and the aft shots won't hit unless lucky or FaT/T5. You need to have all six hit within twenty seconds or so. I still haven't mustered the finesse for long range attacks - my manual data collection is not good enough - I find that my long range shots often miss. I always go in - go in or bust.

Kb

Yah thats always a concern. It depends on where hes positioned honestly. If hes further back towards the rear/side of the convoy ill use that gap, but come in at an angle from ahead of the convoy to make maximum use of the gap. Of course, this is assuming were talking about an early war night surface attack. Escorts don't see very well, so you can get away with alot.

If its a submerged attack late war, most of the time ill manage to get inside the convoy. If i don't and have to shoot from the side, ill shoot tubes 1 thruogh 4 first. Then, lets say the convoy is moving from the west to the east, and im south of the convoy shooting torpedos in a northernly direction. Ill put the boat hard to starboard so that my stern tubes will come to bear against the lead ship in the convoy, but it wont be within a good gyro angle until the middle or rear of the column goes by, but at least im "painting" the column with my rear tubes in case i see an opportunity. While i start this, since they can't see the periscope for crap, ill watch the escorts to see wheree they're going. If it looks like they're coming directly at me ill abort the attack and go deep. A few times ive pushed it, and while they were circeling aruond at 1200 meters away, i completed my turn and shot tubes 5 and 6 before diving.

They key thing here, is the AI is dumb. If the AI had any clue at all, it doesnt matter what boat your in, you shoot your fish and go deep to get ready for the Pay off. Unfortunatly your rarely made to pay for your transgressions :nope:

The worst depth charging i ever had, was the entry for the 2nd support group in biscay bay when i was using improved convoys. That rocked, i loved it. Boat was smashed to bits, and i think i would have made it had i not run into save game issues. (this was a 2 hour DC fest, boat was damaged but was survivable, and i ran out of time, so i saved thinking i would reload the game later and finish where i left off. WHen i reloaded the game the boat would spin along its long axis and i got the "uboat destroyed" message. Dunno what happened, it was damaged but fine when i saved it. :nope:)

Q: big gyro angles - i read in the manual that accuracy decreases as gyro angle increases. I don't _feel_ like this is the case in the game. That's why I suggest taking shots just shy of 90 and 270 in order to make fore and aft tubes hit at approx the same time. I use this attack on TFs often, because they move so quick that you have no time to swing around fully and get a small gyro. Rather, I fire my fore tubes 'with' the task force at the lead TF element and have my rear tube intercept the next one in line ('against' the TF). By the time they hit I'm well into my turn away. Do you know whether the increase of gyro variabiliity with gyro magnitude is modeled?

Kb

Gyro angle is really wierd from different things ive noticed. Now if you want to talk about general angle of the torpedo on the moment it impacts the targeted ship.. THAT angle does matter if you want the topredo to detonate. For this reason alone ill almost always try for a 90 degree shot. Although i will angle it more because at a certain angle, targets between two columns of ships can overlap, increasing your chances to score a hit. Works great when your ahead and to one side of a convoy, you can shoot inside the convoy from the side, and hit ships in the center.

If you want to talk general gyro angle to where your at an extreme angle and the target is moving away from you, to where its *almost* an "up the skirt shot", ive found that if i intend to hit him, ill have to shoot about 5 degrees or so ahead of him.


When it comes to electric torpedos, the gyro indicator LIES. At say 3000 meters against a 9 kt target, if you shoot when the gyroangle indicator says 15, your fish will fall astern of your target. Ive found that a gyro angle of AT LEAST 25 (not 15) seems to be in the ballpark, and even then ill sometimes miss my mark. Its something im still trying to get an exact number on. 25 gyroangle is close, but not 15. Its almost like the TDC is hardcoded for T1a torpedo's. The gyro indictor on those always seems to work fine. Although i do need try those fish at 30 kts (slow settnig) to see if they behave the same as TIIe's or TIIIe's. On the otherhand it could be im not properly resetting the TDC, as ill shoot 2 electric first, followed by two steamers in many attacks.

I'm not talking about the angle that the torpedo hits the target. Let's assume that it's 90. I'm talking about the degree of turn that the torpedo has to make in order to set itself on said 90 degree collision course. The book (i think) talks about large gyro angles having big deviations from intented angle, but I can't verify this from gameplay. When I'm shooting 90 abeam, I don't have a big problem with hitting my intended spot, though at long distances i find I'm lucky to hit the boat at all. I attribute this to poor range and speed calculations on my part. I wonder though, if extreme gyro angles (though still possible - i.e. within the 90 degrees that the torpedo is capable of) will deviate from course to the extent that they have to turn (i.e. turning is a maneuver with variability that is cumulative, integral, across the course of the turn). I seriously doubt that Ubi was keen enough to include this. If not, then the extreme gyro/slight boat angle shots I was describing are just as good as shots with approx zero gyro. Hence you may be able to optimize your strategy some.

Kb

Wow!! :o :huh: Never knew that....:hmm: