Hello TypeXXIII,
apart from what i saw in the news i have some friends that studied in Goettingen, Germany in the eighties. I still have contact to them, as well i've been in Syria recently.
I guess you have no idea what it is like there - the dictatorship controls everything and everywhere. You cannot discuss anything freely, the common people have no idea what it is like to live in a "free country" (e.g. in Denmark). They are frustrated because they have no influence of the "state" at all, this is no democracy, not even a kingdom.

The dictatorship and the security police use every argument against the west that they will be able to find, it does not need any evidence. Main thing is it distracts the people from inner problems like killing the Kurds, restrictive politics, bad economics, poverty etc..
The imams are only jumping the bandwagon and canalize the reservoir of anger and frustration towards their goals. They certainly lay the roots for forthcoming years of hate in the children, and that is why i will not believe an imam speaking of tolerance and the like - simple as that.

If the danish prime minister says he will not go to control the news media because he simply is not able to do this in a free society, no one in Syria believes him. If a member of Syria's government told a newspaper to hold back information or whatever this newspaper will obey - or the editor and boss will be thrown out and executed.
What i want to point out is the control of the state is just as tight or tense that it will not allow any "free" action like spontaneous burning of embassies.

If you think of "spontaneous" burning of books, terrorizing jews and the ability of freee speech under the Nazi regime you will get a glimpse of what it is like.

Greetings,
Catfish

Anyone who has followed the Israel/Palestinian situation on any level beyond the news should be able to say "I told you so." The real question is why the rest of the world did not pick up on these sentiments sooner.

Whats the common opinion/analysis in Israel about how the conflict will play out?

Disgusting.

AFAIK the Syrians didn't provide any security even though they had been asked by the governments involved as they feared attacks. It is an attack by proxy.

Part of teh debate here is whether it was responsible to have printed those cartoons and were they drawn deliberaetly to cause offence.

Well there are different levels. Maybe the journalist/cartoonist went too far in causing offence. I personally think not considering the cartoons I have seen about the Pope, Christ and Jews in the Arab press.

But as the Danish ambassador was saying on BBC24 (I think it was him) because of teh mistake of a single journalist why should other Danes have to suffere eg the ones who lost their jobs due to a boycott of Danish firms, those who might have been hurt in the riots etc..

As written on the BBC site IIRC one muslim top guy said what makes people more prejudiced against Mulsims, seeing cartoons like that or the riots people see on the TV.

Sure get offended, that is your right. Yes you can demonstrate, but peacefully, not burning flags and threatening to job peoples heads off.

Maybe in the west we don't have so much "respect" for religion as maybe 20 or 30 years ago but we have always taken the mickey out of it from a long way back. Part of cultural development in my opinion.

No you haven't. You have to keep in mind, these people are primitive. It is not Norway's fault.

Actually, this has not changed my opinion one bit, I already felt like you are beginning to feel. ;)

I know. Some of us were obviously a little ahead, but noone's perfect.

This doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to swing to the right on the political spectrum or declare my support for war on Iraq/Iran - but I'll call a spade a spade.

Also, I hope something is done. Talking to people about it today, I think my initial conclusion was that if the West doesn't respond with political or economic sanctions of some sort, especially if this continues, they will seriously be compromising their position.

Not just since these days, but since one year, I saw myself in need to change a damn lot of my opinions that I held in earlier years for so long. To think how well-meaning I once thought of Islamic culture ten years ago and during my "time of travellings", and compare it to today makes me wonder if I am really the same person anymore.

I have ended my adventure time, I have a more indiffrent attitude to some things that in earlier years were important to me, and I do not pay so much attention anymore to what people think about me. I assume this culminated in an effect that equals that of stepping back from a big puzzle I was working on for years - and from theat greater perspective all the isolated details suddenly fell into their right places all by themselves, revealing the overall picture. Seen that way, I have not wasted time and did nothing wrong - i reached the final goal that was to be acchieved.

Years ago I was more tolerant and of good will and intention towards islam. but that was before I somewhat completed to combine personal experinces in foreign locations with academical knowledge. the latter let the first appear in different light since one year now, or longer. Also, some contradictory memories of events during travelling - today suddenly make sense. Unfortunately, all these changes in my perception of Islam are for the worse, not for the better. When I think of Iran, which I once held some hope for, I feel dissapointed, and not just because of Ahmadinejadh (whom I do not expect to become a lasting figure on the political stage).

I changed from Paulus to Saulus, it seems. I do not like it, but let's face it - I have turned into a hardliner towards Islam. Hurts my ego to admit that I had follies on my mind, but makes me feel better in my no longer twosplit attitude. Like a relief. Don't trying to be a nice guy anymore. They want the hard way of playing - okay with me. that game can be played by both sides.

I also have re-read the better part of my literature on Islam during last year. Much of it seemed to be completely new books to me. Memories from my travellings are now feeding back into the intellectual input. I think, growing age also has somethign to do with it.

I think we are heading for severe turbulence. Which is a chance to see what in our setup is solid, and what is weak.

As I suspected, the damage to the Chilean embassy is completely collateral, it would be a nice step towards requesting apologies from Denmark if the stormers apologized to Chile for the useless aggression, it's their loss afterall, I suppose, who wants to open an embassy in Syria knowning that if any newspaper publishes anything Syrians don't like your embassy will go down on fire direct or even indirectly? Anyway, if Americans can't always drop an accurate GPS or laser guided bomb from the sky on target, what would you expect from a guy with a Molotov standing right in front of his target?

Ironically, I think the ones being helped most by this are the (not neccesarily extreme) right-wing parties in Europe and America. That doesn't particularly excite me but, in fairness, that may also be a good indicator of the stupidity of the more left-wing ones on this issue.

A mess, this is.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/757

"All the more sad then that the Vatican has followed the British Foreign Secretary in appeasing the critics of the publication of the cartoons."

Bah.

Does Britain leave other european nations, that defend the freedom of speech, alone, because it wants to appease Islam -> because it wants to keep the foolish illusion of Turkey beeing acceptable to become member of the EU, or that EU is not becoming too strong a political player by that membership? Or do they want to appease probably hostile reactions towards their troops in Iraq in advance? I find the official British reaction to this mess irritating at least, if not shameful.

The vatican'S reaction does not surprise me at all. It still wants to be in bed with Islam. Hallelujah.

The Danish consulate in Beirut, Lebanon, is in flames. :doh:

Its was a set of cartoons (12 images actually, you all saw them, they were posted on subsim too), they were not attacks on any person, country or religion. they were toons, laugh at them and get on with your life!

When you burn the national flag of a country you are asking for war! that is not fun at all, its not a toon!

Denmark has to get even with muslims for this,
if they dont they will loose this 'war' and the others will win and it wont be the last time they act like early primates.

It is not a wonder that more and more Danish and other 'white people' becomes racists, people should be shot dead for their actions towards Danish property and it's flag.

If you dont like whats printet in the newspaper DONT FRICKEN READ IT, if you are personally offended by the newspaper sue it, dont burn the flag of the country.

Disclaimer: No I am not a racist, and I don't hate all muslims or other ethnic groups of people but attack my flag and I'll hate you.

Along a similar vein, I had an experience that resembled Skybird's, although my attitude was aimed more towards the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

I used to be a strong believer in the peace process. The Palestinians were asking for the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and E. Jerusalem, in addition to the "right of return." In 2000, the Israelis offered the Palestinians the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip with land added to make up for the lack of East Jerusalem. In other words, the square mileage would have been the same. I felt that this was an amazing offer for the Palestinians, who basically got most of what they had wanted out of the deal. They promptly rejected the plan, refusing to accept it because it did not offer EVERYTHING that the Palestinians wanted.

That is when I lost faith in the peace process and decided that dealing with the Palestinians was a waste of time. Any deal that would have to be made in this process needs to reflect a compromise, on both sides. Israel did so, offering the Palestinians a significant portion of the land of their New Jersey-sized state. The Palestinians refused to compromise, and I doubt that they ever will. Therefore, my attitude has become: Screw 'em.

I am not a racist either but I swear it's hard to call these people on streets burning flags as anything other than dirty brainless monkeys. It's disgusting, and shows governmtns there have absolutely no control. How did it come to this?...

Its not that the governments other there have no control on the situation, they actively support it.
Its a very very big difference.

to me personally this shows that none of the muslims cant be trusted to behave normally they have no moral standing and i dont care weather they were told to riot by the leaders or not its a total overreaction its not as if mohammet was a god but a prophet if he was a god he would have his dolphins whats the problem

If Turkey joins EU im going to burn something. :hmm: http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...archived=False

"Cooperation is possible on the basis of our shared values."
(Tony Blair on EU membership for Turkey, sometime last years.)

"It is a fact, that terms like dialogue, justice, mutuality (Gegenseitigkeit), or terms like human rights and democracy have a completely different meaning and understanding for Muslims than for us."
(The bishop of Izmir, 1999)

Hello,
don't want to hijack the "hate the turks" thread, but i was just surprised what the a spokesman of the US secretary of the state, a Mr. Kurtis Cooper, had to say:

"Those cartoons are indeed an attack towards the moslem's belief. We all completely appreciate and respect freedom of speech and press, but it has to be seen in the context of the responsibility of the press."
and
"Inciting religious or ethnical hate in such a way cannot be accepted." (!)

I will spread those cartoons wherever i'm able to, thank you Mr. Cooper.

Greetings,
Catfish