Umm Type 941 I find your posts interesting but you are reaching A LOT when talking about Ancient Rome being beat by I assume you think Russians or the their ancestors then jumping forward to the 1500s??? These ancient states are different from the modern ones. Furthermore, the Kievan Rus was strongly influenced by the Eastern Roman Empire (ie. Byzantine Empire) from which they received Christianity among other things. "The West" as we know it today and "Russia" were unknown then. Otherwise don't forget people from Finland probably think the same about Russia as say Nicaragua thinks of the USA too?

That said I agree with the consistent anti-Russian bias here, if Russian against did what those Brits did we would never hear the end of it. :know:

Personally I think most Americans think of Russia as a friend...with the work Regan did and the fall of the Berlin wall and the collapse of the old Soviet leadership I think ALOT of Americans think that everything just became hunky dory between America and Russia.Why...? As much as I hate to think it I beleive it is mostly because of skin color....white.As crappy as that sounds I believe that is a major reason for the automatic acceptance of Russia....many people in America never have thought badly about the Russian people...just the villified government of them...probably alot like what Americas government is made out to be now....We all know alot of wars are fought over such non-sense....Maybe Skybird with his background in human behavior can elaborate on this.....all I am trying to say here is Americans "I think" welcome Russia with open arms...maybe some cause of economic reasons..maybe some cause of racial reasons...maybe some cause of blind belief in what the media puts out....

just my 2cents....personally I have nothing against anyone or country that follows the basic "Human" nature laws...don't kill your neighbor,,,don't steal from him...etc etc....Love thy Neighbor....or as Josey Wales put it to Ten Bears...


Peace...

I think Type941 didn't come through entirely clear, but I can actually see a very good connection to times that go that far back. I think a good argument could be made that the dreaded East-West divisions go at least as far back as the split between the Orthodox and Catholic churches a thousand years ago. In many ways, Russia is the heir to the Byzanthine empire.

And as much as I don't want to bring out a nationalist rhethoric which I myself resent, I think anti-slav sentiments, even in residue, are still rooted somewhere in the Western consciousness.

Also,
Actually, this has already been the case for the last several hundred years at least. :dead:

Ivan the Terrible allso established the laws restricting the mobility of the peasants, which would eventually lead to serfdom :roll: He founded Ohrana (that killed thousands) , direct prededicessor to NKVD, KGB and FSB :nope: You are laughing at democracy, i find it disturbing but im not suprised.But some of us have actually made it work. :doh: So Russia doesnt like Georgia and Ukraine and they cut the gas to undermine their leaders. Hoping they will come back to the bosom of mother russia, rodina. Or you could just try to kill them http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/...334263427.html

As a westerner who has lived in Russia and studied the country I do agree that there does seem to be not so much an anti-Russian hatred in the western press but a more negatively critical attitude under teh surface.

It's as if it had become ingrained during the cold war and both sides are still living up to it.

Thing is the way teh Soviet Union collapsed didn't help.

In some ways Russia has been criticised by the west whichever path she has taken since the fall of the USSR.

IE, when Yeltsin was president the west chided Russia over its economic policies not being stable and having to do this for a loan and that for a loan etc.

Now under Putin real GDP has increased. Real wealth and I mean per capita has seen real growth too. The govt is more fiscally responsible and measures were taken to protect the economy from any shocks, eg the big reserve built up. Now although I do agree that in terms of press freedoms things have slipped back, with Putin taking tight control I believe that Russia is more stable economically. Compare 2006 Russia with 1996 Russia, big difference. However Putin is now being hounded about going back to the bad old ways etc..Is their evidence for it, well for state control of media maybe (Radio and TV yes) for Industries, well the heavy ones yes. I get the feeling though that Putin's plan is to allow medium to small enterprises to remain private but the big heavy strategic industries are to be taken back in to state control, even if they are managed in a market way.

However my point is Russias empire collapsed over night, and the Georgians, Ukrainians et al find it easy to blame Russia for everything that is wrong in their countries. Regardless of the good things that Russia as the Soviet Union might have brought.

About Ukraine and all the former republics, it seems their pro-democratic politicians seem to have forgotten that they were more than likely good members of the communist party and they benefitted from the break up due to them getting to the right positions so they could take what they could get. EG Tymoshenko, she didn't become a millionaire through hard graft and business brains..hmmmm

So I agree with CCIP there does seem to be residue left over...it will take decades to settle out. West was bloody naive to think it would be all hunky dory.

What do you know about this subject? What do you know about geopolitical foreign relations from the past 500 years in South America, can you tell me how many twists Venezuela-US relations had? Can you tell me how the relations between Brazil and USA developed in the past 50 years? How do you classify the relations between Roosevelt-Vargas, Lyndon Johnson-Costa e Silva, Nixon-Médici, Reagan-Figueiredo/Sarney, Bush father-Collor, Clinton-FHC, Bush son-Lula? Or is the history not important? What do you know about inter-South American relations? Do you understand the Kirchner-Morales-Lula-Chavez Axis? Do you know anything at all about the "Foro de Sao Paulo" and did you ever read the transcripts from the "Forum Social Mundial"? Do you even know South America is a large continent with 11 countries, each with their own peculiarities and their own special (unique) relations towards the US?

The fact you ignore the unique bilaterality of each country is even more fascinating, because you claim the West doesn't understand Russia, but you seem not to understand South Ameria-USA relations, do you even investigate the causes and reasons for the American foreign policy or you take the comfortable ideological stance and assume without evidence whatever the USA does must be wrong and is bad?

Mr. Type941, you seem to fall victim to the very monster you dislike.

But if history has any value to you, maybe you'd like to see what was found out when a Brazilian journalist researched the USSR-South America relations archives for the first time, you will find the the way USSR done its business there was most fascinating...though you may be dissapointed, today the US doesn't get even close.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/857...books&v=glance

If anything, perhaps he's fallen victim to generalization, but I don't think he's completely off-point. On a general level, it's hard to ignore the Monroe doctrine and how it's continued to have an effect on South America.

All bad though? Considering the geographical situation and economical importance of the US in regard to this area of the world, it wouldn't be valid to say it's all bad or all simple. :hmm:

He wasn't very specific so it's hard to imagine what he's talking about.

Still, my point remains, it is understood that each former [U]SSR has a different relation towards Russia, Georgia is a particular case different from Estonia which is different from Belarus.

So, if we accept this fact, if we recognize these differences, it would be silly not to do the same with most other regions in the globe.

I assume we should take from that, that American interest concerning it's demands of what the EU and NATO should look like, are only well-meant and in Europe's best interests, then... :lol: WAKE UP PEOPLE! Don't trust both.

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The major center of interest for intel today is economical spying, and here all Western countries fight against all other Western countries, and neither the US nor the British intel services nor the German ones are any exception in this. Nations never built friendships, never. Spying on economical targets has drastically increased since end of the cold war. When it comes to economical interests, comanies are not alone with themselves but can count on massive supoport by their government's intel services. And that is valid for ALL Western nations.

US interests in South America are far from beeing in these country's best interests as well. US, russia: the goals are the same, the tools getting used are slightly different - at first glance.

Awful lot of accidents happening to these pipelines :-?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4654632.stm

Well it's no accident that they're on the same pipeline, eh? :hmm:

I'd be surprised if anyone blames Russia for this one. I mean, why the hell would they cut out gas on their own territory?

Let me tell you about Georgia and Ukraine!

Terroist (criminals, whatever) blow up a pipelines to georgia. Beyond repair. georgia's first response "Nothing else comes to my head, must have been the russians doing it on purpose". Read to what this 30+ year old Saakvashvili is saying. So now, the workers fixing the pipelines have to go into this -20C cold, and start fixing the pipelines (russians) just so georgia doesn't freeze. Yesterday, some petty officier is ordering the gas supply to russian embasy stopped because "those little people are probably responsible for this anyway - I'm sure they'll have other means of getting the power". Meanwhile, Ukraine, who already STOLE quite a lot of gas from supplies to Europe, is deciding to give AID to georgia that's freezing up. Ukraine, that claims to have no gas of its own and is struggling due to colds week ago, is giving RUSSIAN gas away for free to georgia as a type of humanitarian aid. How nice. I don't know, but I believe sh*t like that will lead to a full war at some point if the puppets in Ukraine and Georgia don't stop. Meanwhile, countries like Hungary have to start thinking of getting gas from alternative places, like Afrika. Sure, it's far away and expensive, but at least theres no Ukraine in the middle.

Current Georgia and Ukraine governments are the ones elected on utter unpopularity of an alternative regime. Their ONLY way to consolidate people is to create an outside enemy and blame them for everything, from lack of tangerines on the hillside to the color of milk their cows are giving. This outside enemy is Russia. And there's only ONE country that benefits from this instability - the USA. Because for planning a war on IRAN, USA needs the bases at some point in the caucases. Azerbaidzhan and Georgia sound qutie good. Russia on the other hand is totally isolated. To be honest, I'm am completely stunned that Russia isn't actually changing to direct confrontation with these puppet regimes and doesn't take them out like the US does. For russia, saakashvili is same as Castro for US. I don't see them staying in power much longer, because first and foremost thanks to them their people are now freezing. Georgia freely supports tchechen terrorists in Pankiss canyon where they can rest and get some supplies of humans and weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if Georgia will initiate a war confilict with Russia hoping for bakcing of the west (over Sukhumi) and this can get ulgy fast. But I doubt US will want to start miliatry conflict directly against russia over a georgia. but if anyone has some doubt if US is hostile to russia, wake up. the government of the US has always had the goal of destabilizing russia and never allowing it to be a superpower. This time around russia is riding a strong economy and getting stronger every day, and that worries the hell of US.

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Chill out over the South America dude, I only say it's fascinating to find out what's going on there, before you start qouting me your thesis paper sources.

Yes, see, that's exactly my point. You just haven't got a clue why the gas was cut in ukraine, and don't even bother to question the motives behind BLOWING UP their own gaslines to Georgia (beyond repair, I might add). I'm sorry, but it's so difficult to speak with an opponent who ignores reality. Again, look it: Ukraine was deprived of gas because it DEMANDED to be supplied gas under prices that are 5 times less than those which go to EU. Georgia is just georgia, the president is 'samodur' (look it up in russian, I can't translate, basically a self-induced-idiot but hard to explain it correctly) and that's all.

Russia didn't cut gas - GAZPROM did. Putin's not in charge of it. Gazprom is a business that didnt' want to lose money. Ukraine made it political, UKRAINE. And I believe the next gas crisis will be the end of Yucsenko as a president.

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Regarding the East West - I'm not reaching back for no reason. The East West division never existed until the break up of Roman empire, and thanks to THE CHURCH, we have what we have. It's all about the myths that the "west" created about the east - an uncivilized, barbaric, pagan. Rings a bell? Guess what, the east was so much more developed during the Roman times, that it's given credit to. For one, its army was not a bunch of bare arse legioneers, but more like covered in armour cataphracts.

history has been rewritten many many times. To happy times.

I'm not saying russia is all saint. Russia's life under tatar mongol invasion IMO destroyed so much of it. Not only the economy, but the whole culture that existed before it. Ever since the 300 year invasion, russia took over and intergrated so much of barbaric (truly) mongols. pretty much all of our swear language now is derived from tatar mongol. It's very barking like, very offensive. Story goes the first time mongols 'visited' russia and fought the 'varjags' (vikings basically) that were enjoying ruling status in the Russ, there was a fight. A big fight, where the russians lost. So they surrendered. They assumed as always, they'd be allowed to go back as noblemen, and so on. But now - the tatars took all of them, put them on the ground, and DANCED on them for hours celebrating their win. Obviously they all died. So all of a sudden a very civilized nation was turned on its head by a very brutal mongol invader. With time, russians took over so much of their brash, brutal ways that they became a part of us forever (unfortunately). Things, such as lack of any respect by the rulers towards its people. That's why in Russia for centuries, the government never felt responsible before its own people. That sh*t is centuries old, not just communism induced. That's how we are - our own unique civilization developed in that manner. The biggest tragedy was this mongol invasion that was nothing like any other invasion. It was many generations long, the became part of russia. Later one, when Russia changed this domination (Ivan the Terrible), the mongol elite horse archers were used in the russian army as key task forces. they were integrated basicaly, and now we don't have any sort of hatred to mongols as Estonia has towards germans and russians for example.

The east/west division is mainly thanks to the church though, and indeed it goes a looong way back.

This conclusion is doubtful at all. In long history that was the Russia who had always looking for outside enemy. Who gives Your right to call puppets democratic goverment of Ukraina.
What with Romania then ? Gasprom increased the prices of gas about 400%. This is violation of long term contract which is valid for next 10 years (in Romania case). The point is that Russia has no money to pay for transit of gas true Ukrainian, Romanian, Polish territories. Thats why Russia pays this in gas. By increasing prices Russian goverment want to increase the income from sell and dicrease transit charges. Using Gasprom company as political tool, and fuel supplies as politcal argument. Some days ago when conflict between Russia and Ukraine came on top, there were comments in british BBC TV. That Russia appears as unflexible and unreliable businnes partner. Let me tell You that Eastern European countries have enough of Russian superpower politics. All of them from Ukrainian to Hungarian ex USSR and Warsaw Pact countires wish to be free finally (except White Russia with its puppet Lukaschenko). Thats why they joined EU. To be partners in interests, to be part of Europe and part of free world. What todays Russia disagree is that superpower position of this country is dicreasing with every year. The ambitions to be a superpower are stronger than respect for independency of other countries, is stronger than only one right thinking of building up great country in democratic way, and partnership with other countries. What is wrong in aid help to Georgia ? Nothing i would say. The same like aid for Russia which is strugling with money. But there is something wrong if economic situation of Russian citizens is very bad, and goverment put lot of money in new weapons projects. Russian goverment is going back to USSR time with dream of satelite countries which will work for Russia. The time is to wake up not for rest of the world. The time to wake up is for Russia and goverment of this country.
Personally i like Russians so much. I have met many of them, they are very friendly people. But politics and propaganda of Russian goverment is poisoning they minds. No one is Russian State and independece and freedom enemy. No one. The only one who is looking for outside enemy is Russian goverment.

Yes 941, I get your point now, after all the Eastern history is part of my own (An ancestor was a Greek merchant in Cesarea, now Kayseri) and I know full well the differences between East and West Rome, and how the East was more advanced for centuries. I just made the point there are similarities in how some small countries in different parts of the world see Russia and the USA.

Chilled. Like you said it yourself, I believe there are many fascinating topics you'll never hear about, how could it be any different, if Hugo Chavez steals all the space reserved for SA anyway? How individualistic of him to monopolize all the space for himself!

I'll gladly reply to your post G. in full, but a bit later. One thing that struck me now is you believe honestly that government in Ukraina is democratic. Which is a mojore mistake. It's just another corrupt coalition (that fell apart btw) that's taken over the old one. Son of Yuchenko is driving around in cars that cost half a million euro, use cellphones that cost 40000 dollars, and live in very shady apartments registered to unknown parties. When confronted with all of this (how is it possible for such poor nation to have such well funded life of sons president) the answer was typical 'let's focus on real issues, he's a good boy, that's all' blah. :) Reality? Yushenko is as corrupt as anyone else over there, he's a part of former government that he replaced, what more do you want to know! If you think he's some white sheep - wake up mate. He's just got 1 way to stay in power - blame russia for everything, because it drives SOME part of his country. But not the western part that is totally pro russian... You have to realize, that Russian and Ukranian people's closeness is not a made up thing. It's a fact - our nations are very closely related so for Russia to be having an interest in Ukraine is perfectly natural, and not so many oppose this as CNN would have you belief. My grandmother is ukranian for example. It's the Ukranian governent that's trying to present this as national issue. Matter of the fact it that Yushenko is a puppet of the US and that's the full stop.

Type241 We are very far apart in our wiews, but this bit you wrote got my attention. The realison of this legacy in Russia AND learning from it, could be the key to peace and prosperity for the Russian people and bases for good relations with its neigbours.

And the Spy Rock :huh:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4658462.stm

What Next :rotfl:

I'll subscribe to all that. :yep:

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I'm tempted to doubt the severity of the Mongol thing somewhat, I suppose, although I myself won't deny having some Tartar roots (at the same time, most of my ethnic Russian background is from the Novgorod area, untouched by that invasion). There are surely other aspects to the national tragedy of Russia's character, and I don't think it's fair to blame outside invaders for it exclusively. It's infinitely more complex than that.

Otherwise, the only thing that keeps irritating me is the attitude of "Russia=USSR", especially in relation to the dealings with former Soviet republics. Please, Ukraine. Your Bolscheviks were in it too all along. You're not any less guilty than Russia is of the injustices inflicted by the totalitarian rule, and if we do go by that logic - then Georgia may be the most guilty of all! (and what are they complaining of?)

The bottom line is that this energy thing is an issue of dealing with the still-Soviet infrastructure. And that's a legacy of the USSR which will continue to cause problems because there is no right answer - blaming any of the 'successor states' is not the right answer. The only answer I can come up with is "cooperate or get your own". Russia owes Ukraine no more favours than Georgia or Azerbaijan owe Ukraine.