And a last example of what we have to put up with...How is that saying "If you have to say a lie,make it as big as possible"?

Greece since 1999 that didn't stop Turkey getting candidate status in EU is trying to take as exchange,a EU comittment that will force Turkey to find peaceful solution.In deed since 1999 the court of Hague is mentioned in Eu papers,after greek insistance.

In Turkey the newspapers say the opposite!That Turkey wants to go to Hague and Greece doesn't wants to!And this is propagandised even in govermental turkish sites (note the gov.tr domain).And it's news of 1996 and STILL they haven't recognized it.

EU SLAPS DOWN ATHENS

The European Union (EU), tired of Greek obstinacy, has finally
declared that all the disputes between Turkey and Greece should be
settled by arbitration in the International Court of the Hague.

http://www.byegm.gov.tr/YAYINLARIMIZ...1/96X11X18.TXT

It is ABSURD,because Turkey ,as i mentioned before hasn't recognised Hague while Greece has!

This is the Greek declaration recognizing Hague,directly from the court's site:

GREECE
10 January 1994.

[Translation from the French]

I declare, on behalf of the Greek Government, that I recognize as compulsory ipso facto and without special agreement, on condition of reciprocity, in relation to any other State accepting the same obligation, the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice in all legal disputes referred to in Article 36, paragraph 2, of the Statute of the Court. However, the Greek Government excludes from the competence of the Court any dispute relating to defensive military action taken by the Hellenic Republic for reasons of national defence.

This declaration shall remain in force for a period of five years. Upon the expiry of that period, it shall continue to have effect until notice of its termination is given.

Athens, 20 December 1993.
http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/ibasic...tions.htm#grec

The Turkish doesn't exist,because Turkey has never done it.Yet they feed their people the idea ,that they want to go to Hague and we are holding them back!It is insane ,but that's what happens in a state where the military can bring down a goverment and nobody sweats.

Complete list of members of the UN and whether they have or not recognized the court (Turkey hasn't):

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/ibasic...UNmembers.html


Then go tell CNN who's right...

And this is the text in the EU-Turkey accession talks document ,which is celebrated by the greek side,because shows what Turkey must do (good relations,improve her relations,UN charter,Hague):

Greek FM satisfied with EU-Turkey pact
In article 19 of the agreement, ironed out throughout much of Friday, it states that the "European Council, while underlining the need for unequivocal commitment to good neighborly relations welcomed the improvements in Turkey's relations with its neighbors and its readiness to continue to work with the concerned Member States towards resolution of outstanding border disputes in conformity with the principle of peaceful settlement of disputes in accordance with the United Nations Charter ... In this connection it (European Council) reaffirmed its view that unresolved disputes having repercussions on the accession process, should if necessary be brought to the International Court of Justice for settlement. The European Council will be kept informed of progress achieved which it will review as appropriate."

http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/...&article=14423

Probably in Turkey the same text was interpreted as a slap of the EU to Athens too and a reminder to Greece to conform to the UN Charter,be good neighbour and recognize Hague :damn:

:rotfl: As long as the 'war' is planned to happen after 2030 then the turks might get their A400Ms.

Are all Turkish and Greek pilots this bad? They are well outside the 330 knot minimum for max deg turn rate. The only reason to do this is to get a snapshot off, and that is not what they are doing.

-S

PS. As they say in the F-16 - if you aren't between 330 knots to 440 knots - GET THERE!

I wouldn't mind go in depth to this,but i am about to do a journey,but in about a month that i will be again available i ll try to catch up with this thread to see how it goes.


Now,to your question.I don't know who says about 330 knots,all i know is that if you get in repeated cycles of sustained turns,there is nothing that can hold your speed up,so all depends on the situation and what your opponent does.In the particular video,they are in the scissors.

A bit of information about the scissors:

Now lets assume that the same situation occurs, but one plane is going 200 knots and the other is going 275 knots.

If you come out of that second immelman with only 75 knots and your opponent comes out with 130, you are in a very bad position since he will be able to turn much better than you at that altitude.
http://members.aol.com/karbarra/tactics/scissors.html

So it appears there are no "laws" nor can a plane sustain its speed in any manouver whatever the case is and actually in the scissors if you are much faster than the opponent,you risk to overshoot and find him on your tail.

Or Here:

This Type Of Fight Is Called A Slow Speed Scissors, Because The Aircraft Flight Paths Criss-Cross Continually As Each Pilot Slows His Machine And Pulls To Put The Planes Nose Behind His Adversary.
http://www.afapo.hq.af.mil/Presentat...?IMAGE_ID=5349




As for how bad the pilots are,i think the F-4E pictures flying over the olive trees show that if not anything else,Greek pilots do some very dangerous trainning.And unlike most airforces ,since 1974 they are daily making real dogfights (apart the fact that the missiles aren't fired) against a potential true enemy.

This is the only exercize i have found with a quick search,it is old,but it is also before 1974,when these dogfights hadn't started yet and the trainning of both airforces wasn't so intense.

The 1971 meet was held at Eskisehir, Turkey, and hosted by General Mushin Batur, Chief of Staff of the Turkish Air Force. It brought together pilots from all three NATO Southern Region nations, plus a combined U.S. Navy-U.S. Air Force guest team. It also featured for the first time in international gunnery competition five different air weapon systems: Northrop F-5s, Fiat G-91s, North American F-100s, LTV A-7As from the USN, and McDonnell Douglas F-4Es from the USAF.

Final standings showed the Turks on top with 596 points, the combined U.S. team with 538, the Italians with 464, and the Greeks, the first-day leaders, with 422. By winning, the Turks were one up on their Southern Region allies...

...Preparations for “Best Hit ’72� started in November 1971, with the selection of an AIRSOUTH project officer. In December the agreement to host the meet at Larissa Air Base, Greece, was received from the then Hellenic Air Force Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Demetrios Kostakos...

Five points down at the end of the first day of competition, the Greek team rallied and took over the lead early in the morning of the second day of competition. They ended the day with a 14-point margin over the second-place U.S. team. Each consecutive day saw the Hellenic team gradually increasing its lead, to 29, 35, and 39 points, and when the meet ended they had won by a 28-point margin and a total score of 714 points. Finishing in second place was the USN-USAF guest team with 686 points. In third place was the Turkish team with 671 points, followed closely by the Italian team with 662.

The 714 points rolled up by the Greek team was the highest winning score to date. Besides the “Over-all Top Gun� of the meet, Captain G. Papaioannou, who amassed 136 points, all the members of the Greek team scored at least 110 points.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a.../susskind.html

So,if in 1971 and 1972 when there were no active greekturkish disputes, Greeks and Turks were decent enough,i would deduce that today they have also improved somewhat seen the daily "trainning" and the fact that our airforce since 1974 trains for real war against a real enemy.

Regards