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-   -   Allied Air Force vs. Submarine (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=258425)

Raf1394 03-29-25 02:17 AM

When my crew spots an aircraft. I always dive.
I go flank speed ahead and change direction to be sure.

Then i wait for the aircraft to drop the bombs, if it missed me, i go to periscope depth.Then i can observe it.
I see the aircraft usually doing some few attack runs and dropping bombs on the wrong location. If i see he suddenly goes away, after a while i surface.

I never try to fight and shoot a aircraft surfaced. Its suicide. Its not worth the risk, only if i have no other choice. When that happens, i go like half speed and right before he zero's on me. I go flank speed and go full rudder left or right, if you time it good, the bombs will miss.

JU_88 03-29-25 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raf1394 (Post 2951004)
When my crew spots an aircraft. I always dive.
I go flank speed ahead and change direction to be sure.

Then i wait for the aircraft to drop the bombs, if it missed me, i go to periscope depth.Then i can observe it.
I see the aircraft usually doing some few attack runs and dropping bombs on the wrong location. If i see he suddenly goes away, after a while i surface.

I never try to fight and shoot a aircraft surfaced. Its suicide. Its not worth the risk, only if i have no other choice. When that happens, i go like half speed and right before he zero's on me. I go flank speed and go full rudder left or right, if you time it good, the bombs will miss.


Agreed, only time i might have a shoot out with one is if im out torpedos and on my home anyway, as Im unlikley to need to go deep again for that patrol, that and if the plane type isnt anything too nasty.

Navigator777 03-29-25 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88 (Post 2950894)
Ha, nice find, well I say let the planes a little charitable wiggle room on the power of their 20mm - to compensate for their overall stupidity, predictability, massivley easy detection, inability to shoot fixed guns at all at certain attack angles and pretty poor bomb accuracy. when you factor all that in, what's a little damage buff to their cannons? And TBH if I fight them rather than evade, well maybe I deserve the hull integrity of a collander


I asked chatGPT for statistics and numbers about losses and this is what I got:

The exact number of attacks where aircraft actually detected and attacked a submarine varies by source, but approximately 2,500-3,000 attacks were recorded during World War II.

Breakdown by year (approximate data):
1942 - about 500 attacks, as aircraft were not yet that effective.

1943 - the peak of combat, about 1,000-1,500 attacks, due to improved detection technology.

1944-1945 - about 700-1,000 attacks, as submarines began to avoid surface navigation due to the threat of aircraft.

Not every attack resulted in a sinking:

On average, only 10-15% of attacks ended in the sinking of the submarine.

Another 20-30% caused serious damage, forcing the submarine to abort the mission.

The remaining 50-70% of attacks either did not cause critical damage, or the attack was unsuccessful (the submarine managed to go under water).

Reasons for unsuccessful attacks:
Weather conditions - poor visibility and rough seas interfered with aiming.

Submarine maneuvers - sharp turns and emergency diving.

Aiming problems - depth charges often exploded either too early or too late.

Anti-aircraft fire - submarines could sometimes repel an attack, especially in 1943-1944, when they began to be armed with 20-37 mm anti-aircraft guns.

Thus, out of approximately 15,000 submarine-hunting sorties, approximately 2,500–3,000 ended in attacks, and approximately 300–350 submarines were sunk (success rate ~10–15%).

Hooston 03-29-25 05:49 PM

Predictive text
 
This link mentions the Coastal Command effort in support of D-Day:
"During these operations, aircraft of Coastal Command flew 2,197 ASW (Anti-submarine Warfare) sorties in the Channel and Western Approaches. 72 submarines were sighted, 40 were attacked. Coastal Command anti-shipping and strike squadrons flew 1,672 reconnaissance and 315 strike sorties."
So the total number of sorties during the war was waaaaay more than 15000 and the chance of seeing a uboat on one of these was small. You have to be really careful with ChatGPT. uboat.net (and even wikipedia) is very carefully researched and much more trustworthy. Look here.
In trawling through this I found this image of Beaufighters attacking destroyers with rockets. Look at all the splashes in the water literally miles from any target!

Navigator777 03-29-25 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooston (Post 2951111)
This link mentions the Coastal Command effort in support of D-Day:
"During these operations, aircraft of Coastal Command flew 2,197 ASW (Anti-submarine Warfare) sorties in the Channel and Western Approaches. 72 submarines were sighted, 40 were attacked. Coastal Command anti-shipping and strike squadrons flew 1,672 reconnaissance and 315 strike sorties."
So the total number of sorties during the war was waaaaay more than 15000 and the chance of seeing a uboat on one of these was small. You have to be really careful with ChatGPT. uboat.net (and even wikipedia) is very carefully researched and much more trustworthy. Look here.
In trawling through this I found this image of Beaufighters attacking destroyers with rockets. Look at all the splashes in the water literally miles from any target!

I agree, statistics and figures need to be checked. That's why I wrote where I got these approximate figures from. It's probably very difficult to get exact figures from somewhere. But at least approximate ones.
And the same uboat mentions that according to some sources, submarine hunters, the Royal Air Force Coastal Command, lost 700 aircraft for various reasons.
It turns out that hunting for submarines was not an easy task. https://uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm

Navigator777 03-29-25 09:14 PM

You can immediately feel the difference in the large expansion of the scenario compared to the basic SH3 game and the game assembly with supermods that I am currently playing.
I have made several careers in the game and am moving from one to another for the sake of interest.
One of the unusual careers for me is the career in the Mediterranean Sea, which has a lot of both aircraft actions on both sides and convoys.
For example, in December 1942, in the Tripoli area, when enemy aircraft were already frequently pestering in the sky, I met a convoy of blues at a speed of 6 knots. 5 large merchant ships, 1 small one, 3 escort destroyers and my seven submarines, and everyone had their own anti-aircraft weapons.
Enemy aircraft began to fly in and, despite the anti-aircraft fire, knock out the merchant ships one by one.
It was big news for me, the opportunity to meet friendly convoys in the new assembly. In the basic SH3, this never happened. I also noted that the general anti-aircraft fire of this entire convoy did not particularly prevent the flying boats from knocking out the merchants one after another.
At that time, the anti-aircraft guns of my seven could do nothing at all. Even when I installed a quadruple 20 mm anti-aircraft gun and a twin 37 mm - all in vain.
Moreover, the 37 mm turned out to be much worse than the quadruple 20 mm. Heavy, clumsy, slow and no effect even when hitting, unlike the basic SH3, in which the 37 mm anti-aircraft gun is very effective.
But now, when I play in June 1943, I met a practically military convoy going somewhere on its own business at 9 knots.
I also joined the convoy to watch the convoy's anti-aircraft guns work. The convoy consists of three light cruisers of the Duca d'Aosta and Garibaldi type in the center
anti-aircraft armament of which
4×2 - 100 mm
4×2 - 37 mm
4 ×2 -13, 2
And four small merchants with them in the center.

Two destroyers and small nosed boats along the perimeter
And each of them with its own anti-aircraft armament.

We didn't have to wait long and one after another the enemy planes started flying in. I was interested to see how long the plane would hold out against such a combined anti-aircraft fire of the convoy. This Sunderland held out for 3 whole minutes and even sank one small transport in the end.

I apologize for the poor quality of the image. I took it on my phone just to at least somehow illustrate what was written.

Navigator777 03-29-25 09:17 PM

https://youtu.be/pXyVYdITR4Q?si=9_Vd0wrxXixhCnhx

Navigator777 03-29-25 09:19 PM

https://youtu.be/rnR0Ystb2ho?si=_nLrSxPkiLYz9Z-g

Shadowblade 03-30-25 09:57 AM

I shot down some biplanes (Fairey Swordfish), but usually my command is:

https://images.steamusercontent.com/...130290778ED95/

the renown for aircraft is not worth to risk the damage.

Raf1394 03-31-25 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowblade (Post 2951181)
I shot down some biplanes (Fairey Swordfish), but usually my command is:

https://images.steamusercontent.com/...130290778ED95/

the renown for aircraft is not worth to risk the damage.

Totally agree :03:

Navigator777 03-31-25 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowblade (Post 2951181)
I shot down some biplanes (Fairey Swordfish), but usually my command is:

https://images.steamusercontent.com/...130290778ED95/

the renown for aircraft is not worth to risk the damage.

For various reasons, circumstances may arise in such a way that the submarine does not have enough time to fully submerge and remain undetected after being detected by an aircraft.

In this case, it is necessary to make a decision where the damage from an aircraft attack will be higher.

If you use the maximum possible speed, maneuvering and anti-aircraft weapons and open anti-aircraft fire, then the targeting accuracy of the aircraft attack will decrease and the bombs will fall somewhere further from the submarine hull. In addition, if these are depth charges, they will explode at the depth specified by the pilot of the attacking aircraft. This is approximately 5-7 meters from the surface and reduces the force of damage from the explosion by the depth of the bomb.

If you begin to dive, the submarine loses its speed, maneuverability and becomes an easier target.
There is nothing to stop the attacking aircraft from calmly and more accurately aiming at the submerging submarine. Depth charges explode at a depth of 5-7 meters, are closer to the strong hull of the submerged submarine and cause great damage.

This is what happens in my game.
If it is not possible to dive in time and remain unnoticed by the searching aircraft, then they attack the submerged submarine and drop depth charges very accurately.

Shadowblade 03-31-25 04:43 AM

@Navigator777 - yeah, I was talking about situations when you have option to avoid it.
Then I just crash dive and change the course just in case they detected me too.


If aircraft is too close to dive in time then it is really better to use flak, flank speed and evasive maneuvers.


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