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- - Death and valor on a warship doomed by its own Navy. (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=243871)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufus Shinra (Post 2650048)

Consider that Russian submarines don't have much of the same missions as the US', they aren't trying to patrol all the oceans en masse at all times, so the patrol length is probably quite shorter. As for allies, that would require a sustainable diplomatic posture ensuring reciprocal loyalty, which, to use an euphemism, isn't exactly the trend taken at the moment by the civilian leadership in the US.

The size of the economies matter, and keep in mind that the US isn't in a shiny situation either, economically-speaking. Infrastructure is in a very had state, governmental healthcare spending is still growing without result, the educational system is increasingly dependent on foreign-born students to fill the needs for STEM graduates, the base industry lacks competitiveness and the management is infamous for its short-sightedness (Boeing, for example). I'm not saying that the US is going to implode à la USSR, but IMO, these military ambitions are becoming increasingly unsustainable due to internal tensions, disengagement from allies thanks to US diplomatic choices and pressure from China to push for higher defence spending.

Going for a frigate/destroyer navy would seriously reduce the costs while keeping capabilities pretty similar. After all, from what I understand, the US hasn't produced as many missiles for its ships as it has VLS cells in the USN. The AB on their own have roughly 6 500 cells (more if you count the ESSM in quad packs), and I kinda doubt they've produced as many Tomahawk, SM-2/3/6, ASROC and ESSM. Then there are the Tico.

Russian submarines (and their Soviet predecessors) had (and still have) much the same missions (with 90 day patrols and the like) but they have (and had) smaller crews due to higher automation, you can see how it works in all areas from tactical to navigation to engineering.
The best current example would be comparing the larger Yasen-M with ~85 strong crew to RN's Astute class with it's ~98 strong crew to Virginias with ~135 strong crew.
Incidentally smaller crews and higher automation also allowed better crew comforts ie earlier use of individual bunks, recreational zones and so on.

Sustainability of the global ambitions is a valid but ultimately separate from the fleet composition question, ie the politicians make this sort of decisions and then Naval planners build around it.

I think that this is again the wrong way to go, I think the core difference between European FFGs and USN DDGs is not the size or class of the ship but the level of automation, which drives the large USN crews in general. So your objectives (a higher number of smaller crews using the same manpower pool) could be obtained that way but you would need to break institutional inertia for this, like it happened with say the rifle ammo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcobolo (Post 2649972)

I should add, most or all countries are suffering from the "Millenial" problem.
Young people were grown up thinking they didn't have to win, they only had to show up to get the same trophy as the winners.
Most of them know very little about courage, honor, or anything related to actually being that type of person.
Your statement of the population being kindler and gentler is correct.
As fortunate as that is in regards to less racial division and so forth, it WILL have the downside of peoples that would seek to end the USA realizing they might be able to, from within.
I won't speak to religions or politics, but i'm quite sure you know what i'm saying without saying it.

lol, where do they find these people xD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santini (Post 2650157)

lol, where do they find these people xD

Anyone who gets old enough will think that of the newest generation. I find it amusing that those who blame the current generation for being indolent, cowardly, entilted and so on, come from the generation that attacked veterans from the Vietnam draft for being baby killers (in the US) or pissed on the Unknown Soldier Tomb (in France, during May 1968), for example. But those who complained about said examples usually ignored the stuff their own generation messed back in their time, and so on all the way to Neanderthal.

Because, dammit, in my time, kids weren't weaklings who thought fire was a given.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcobolo (Post 2649969)

Thanks for posting that article.
But your closing statements caught my attention even quicker.
This:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal (Post 2649555)

Plus, I suspect the caliber of sailors has changed over the years. Our society has changed.
My generation wasn't as tough as my father's generation. The current generations are softer yet. It's not a thing to characterize as blame or denigration, it's just a result of our success as a society. We're nicer, more thoughtful, and more understanding and supportive of each other.

Both my father and uncle were USN towards the end of WW2, late 1944. My father was on a destroyer in a csg. My uncle was on a tender in another fleet.
They both saw action but won't talk about anything but the fun times.
From what I have gleaned over time both saw some boats sunk and don't want to talk about the details.
They were/are both farmers before and after they served. And still the two toughest men i've ever met.

I followed my fathers footsteps and went into the USN at 20 years old. I spent 5 years patrolling for Somali pirates. We sunk more than a few and brought them onboard (brig) and dropped them off to the local authorities. Fairly sure they were all likely executed by firing squad after a VERY short trial. The (at least then) somali government didn't like them any more than merchant ships did.

I did get to go to a lot of exotic ports getting to/from patrol area though.

Speak for yourself :03:

But yes, my nephew (my sister passed away) seems to think I owe him something. I've told him the only thing I owe his lazy Millenial self is a swift kick in the ass. He can't even hold a job at a fast food restaurant while saying he is a "Chef" and won't work for anyone until they appreciate his ability.
I've suggested to him his only chance is to become a military cook because he runs out of his moms money in a few more months.
And i've let him know in no uncertain terms he won't get a penny from me unless he proves himself a man.

See? I am softer and kinder. I likely will make you walk the plank but I won't shoot you in the back to get you to swim, I'll just yank the plank out and find out if you can swim or not. :arrgh!:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcobolo (Post 2649972)

Ok, boomer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS) (Post 2650207)

Ok, boomer.

OK, attack boat.

Just for the sake of clarity - I am a liquid fuelled silo based heavy ICBM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin (Post 2650223)

Just for the sake of clarity - I am a liquid fuelled silo based heavy ICBM.

And I'm a pretty delta-canard pre-strategic nuclear bomber myself. *wiggles his canards in a suggestive manner* Could be much worse, though.

Well you have a much more fun life than I do then.

I mean I am to spend my whole life in that silo and this is the best outcome possible for everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal (Post 2649251)

It's the dead of night, and the USS Fitzgerald is on a secret mission to the South China Sea.

The sailors on the $1.8 billion destroyer are young, tired and poorly trained.

"Poorly trained" crew on secret mission sound like a joke.
:haha:

Lack of competences, rashness, selfconfidence.
But, of course, the true is inconvenient for the most powerful fleet in the world...

Quote:

Originally Posted by PL_Andrev (Post 2650848)

But, of course, the true is inconvenient for the most powerful fleet in the world...

I thought the article was about the US Navy, not Lichtenstein's historically undefeated navy.

Seem similar to the Norwegian frigate accident against a tanker, causing the frigate to sink.

Recap, translated (turn on captions):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2BiouzyDsY

Report:
https://www.naval-technology.com/fea...lision-report/

test0r!:Kaleun_Salute: after a decade's silent run! :Kaleun_Applaud:

"Death and valor on a warship doomed by its own Navy."

While reading "Conquering Tide," by Ian Toll, this title could apply to USS ATLANTA during the 13 Nov 1942 action near Savo Island and Guadalcanal, who was fired upon by 'friendly' warships on that overcast, moonless night.

BT

Great post, test0r. "Do you know which boat is heading toward us, a little port side." Jesus Christ.
Popular Mechanics article: https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...-crash-report/
and USNI report: https://news.usni.org/2018/11/30/nor...ccident-report

Before 1996 there were units named Fleet Training Group. You choped to them and were trained by professional experts and instructors in their fields hand selected from the fleet and Coast Guard. You were there until your ship worked as a solid team and knew what you were doing.
They then went to the silly system of train the trainers and a on board team trained the ship so people learned less and less as the training teams were not professional instructors, nor experts in their fields, but held the training slot due to their rank. . so the ship learned how to do things from its own onboard teams. Over time that training level and skill was allowed to degrade further and further. It was like a bad game of telephone tag.
The Commodore of GITMO FTG even gave a speech in 1996 forecasting this would happen but the Navy wanted to save money. You know the results.

whecsailor!:Kaleun_Salute:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aktungbby (Post 2651319)

test0r!:Kaleun_Salute: after a decade's silent run! :Kaleun_Applaud:

:salute: Ran out of food supplies, had to surface.