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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidd (Post 2645850)

You'd have to ask Koji - and the Dev's - as to what - if anything - will/will not be implemented. As I understand it, Koji has been modelling the escorts and putting in a ton of research on both various iterations of Asdic, and the associated weapons systems, magazine capacities and so forth.

As I believe playable escorts will utterly revolutionize the game - in a very good way - and mindful of the incredible effort Koji has put in, I wanted to theorise as to how this might be implemented from a game-play point of view, and how the both AI and Player-operated escorts might be made to work.

It seems to me that however it's done, there is a need for escort-players to be able to transfer into AI escorts, and vice versa as situations change, so that escort-players are spared the mind-numbing tedium of routine Asdic searches as far as practicable, and are able to transfer into the nearest AI escort to the suspected location of a U-boat, and then can apply thinking and tactics far better than an AI operated escort could. Longer DC attacks/hunts would likely result, necessitating a reduction in DC lethality, but increase in incremental damage problems - some of the time - to the player-uboat crew.

I should emphasise that Koji does not agree with my take on the gameplay side of things, hence the discussions here and elsewhere.

Thanks. Has their been a firm "yes" as to whether playable escorts will be added ?

I don't know is the short answer. I think not to, would be an extraordinary decision, as the introduction of playable escorts, and the role of "Convoy commander" (CC) would hugely improve the replay-ability of the game, as the behaviour, persistence of hunt/dc attack and variability of "safe" approaches to the convoy would all become very different from one game to another.

For example, if a u-boat is detected, the most likely strategy for the CC would be to initially detach Tribals or Bitterns to force or keep the U-boat submerged, ideally at depth. The CC would then detach nearby Flower-class corvettes to prosecute the more prolonged DC attacks on said U-boat whilst the Tribals and Bitterns are sent haring back to the convoy to cover gaps in the screen. This also implies that the very act of detaching escorts to suppress a U-boat also open up oppurtunities for other U-boats, which in the ordinary game do not really occur. So right there you have a great gameplay mechanic and problem for the CC to contend with, ie how much do I detach to clobber this U-boat and for how long, without putting the convoy at undue risk due to the screen being degraded.

I envisage that having escort players able to "transfer" to and from AI escorts would be a very sensible mechanic, along with the AI escorts having a routine to follow to relocate back to their assigned stations around the convoy, without routing through any sea-area occupied by merchants. The transfer idea would allow the CC to detach a ship to an area he suspects a U-boat to be in, then for players to take it over once arriving at the area to prosecute searches/attacks on a more thorough basis than perhaps the AI can be coded to achieve; whilst not compelling the players to be onboard that ship until needed. As no U-boat can state with any certainty that an escort is, or is not, player controlled at any instant, they'll need to be more wary than they are currently.

Essentially it's a way of making the escorts a scarier and more effective proposition than they are currently, without having to code the AI to perform complex behaviours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidd (Post 2645863)

I don't know is the short answer. I think not to, would be an extraordinary decision, as the introduction of playable escorts, and the role of "Convoy commander" (CC) would hugely improve the replay-ability of the game, as the behaviour, persistence of hunt/dc attack and variability of "safe" approaches to the convoy would all become very different.

For example, if a u-boat is detected, the most likely strategy for the CC would be to initially detach Tribals or Bitterns to force or keep the U-boat submerged, ideally at depth. The CC would then detach nearby Flower-class corvettes to prosecute the more prolonged DC attacks on said U-boat whilst the Tribals and Bitterns are sent haring back to the convoy to cover gaps in the screen. This also implies that the very act of detaching escorts to suppress a U-boat also open up oppurtunities for other U-boats, which in the ordinary game do not really occur. So right there you have a great gameplay mechanic and problem for the CC to contend with, ie how much do I detach to clobber this U-boat and for how long, without putting the convoy at undue risk due to the screen being degraded.

I envisage that having escort players able to "transfer" to and from AI escorts would be a very sensible mechanic, along with the AI escorts having a routine to follow to relocate back to their assigned stations around the convoy, without routing through any sea-area occupied by merchants. The transfer idea would allow the CC to detach a ship to an area he suspects a U-boat to be in, then for players to take it over once arriving at the area to prosecute searches/attacks on a more thorough basis than perhaps the AI can be coded to achieve; whilst not compelling the players to be onboard that ship until needed. As no U-boat can state with any certainty that an escort is, or is not, player controlled at any instant, they'll need to be more wary than they are currently.

Essentially it's a way of making the escorts a scarier and more effective proposition than they are currently, without having to code the AI to perform complex behaviours.

Ok, thanks for the info.

No problem. May I ask if this is something you'd like to see implemented? If yes, but not as set out in the preceding posts, what ideas do you have?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidd (Post 2646019)

No problem. May I ask if this is something you'd like to see implemented? If yes, but not as set out in the preceding posts, what ideas do you have?

I don't even have the game as my pc wouldn't run it. Don't think it would anyway; it can't run SH5 very well, i.e.

But I am following it's development; sooner or later I'll have a newer pc anyway.

I had an interesting discussion today ingame on the subject of players being able to transfer between escorts (when playable escorts are implemented).

He contended that it was "unfair", which really surprised me, as it seems to me that having poorly functioning AI behaviour of the escorts is already unfair - in the uboats favour!

Currently a U-boat player if he's a bit careful, can expect no detection or DC attacks, provided he can remain undetected for 6 minutes or so and make 160m depth during that period. If he's less than capable, he can expect between 0-2 DC attacks, between the surface and 160m, and if halfway capable, can pretty much always avoid a critical hit.

With the caveat that DC lethality is overly dangerous as modelled currently in game, it seems self-evident to me that employing the AI escorts to prosecute asdic searches as of routine, without the convoy being at alert, would be a good start, and that allowing players to take over an AI ship at will to prosecute a more prolonged and thorough asdic search/attack would add to the difficulty of U-boats, as well as improving gameplay for both sides players.

Fundementally, allowing players to transfer between escorts is not much different to the current situation where U-boat players can re-enter a lobby to start or join new u-boats?

During our discussion today, it was suggested that escort players only be allowed to move to a ship which has detected the U-boat via asdic. This seems overly proscriptive to me, as for a start it means that a surfaced U-boat, easily visually acquired by a human player on an escort, cannot be attacked by that same escort, because it hasn't made an asdic detection, and therefore cannot be moved to the required position...

Thoughts?