SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Base Time 2018

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KaleunMarco

01-05-19 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Front Runner (Post 2584950)

I just discovered a BIGGY. I'm not sure if this has ever been isolated or reported before.
It happened like this. I was starting up SH4 FOTRSUv80 RS2 this morning and I loaded up the save game that I saved last night. As sometimes happens, the RADIO is already playing when the scene opens in the control room. Other than that, nothing seems out of whack. Normally, I would either back out to the Main Menu, or back out to Windows and try again.

This time, I decided to try, as I sometimes do, loading an earlier save. I did, and when the scene opened in the control room the RADIO was NOT playing. OK, good, now I'll load up the save game where I left off last night.
One save game was made right at SUNSET. The other save game was a NOON save game. I am playing at a combination of 1x and 512x time compression.

NOW, here is the discovery. When I loaded up the NOON save game and it opened to the Control Room scene and the RADIO was off, I immediately loaded up the SUNSET save game and when it loaded, I started playing from the MAP (F5) and set TC at 512x. Shortly thereafter I get a RADAR CONTACT. So I order a Crash Dive and then go to external view. That is when I noticed that it was broad daylight! I mean like NOON broad daylight.
OK, when I had loaded up the SUNSET save game (the second time), and it started, I neglected to notice that, one, the lighting in the control room was daytime, and, the lighting on the MAP was also daytime.

What I had inadvertently discovered is the source of the very whacked out Base Time differentials. Propbeanie, I remember you mentioning this before that you also noticed some Base Time shifts when loading and/or reloading previous save games.

Had I continued to play, Base Time would've lost ALL meaning because, by loading the NOON save game, then upon opening the control room scene and immediately loading the SUNSET save, (and not noticing that Base Time vs Celestial Sphere was WAY out of whack,) then ALL of my subsequent save games would've been based on the whacked out Base Time vs Celestial Sphere.

I was able to repeat this several times and every single time, the error occurred. I have the save games that I used in case you are interested in trying, but I think you can test this yourselves by,

1. Starting SH4 and loading a save game that you know was made near SUNSET or at NIGHT. Notice that the CONTROL ROOM lights are red. (Night)
Note your Base Time. (Mine was 2036 which was correct according to my Lat. Long position referenced to my Midway Base.)

2. When the (Step 1) CONTROL ROOM scene opens, before you do anything else, load a save game that you know was made near NOON or during DAYLIGHT hours. Notice that the CONTROL ROOM lights are white. (Daylight) Note your Base Time. (Mine was 1215 which was NOON at my Midway Base.)
I don't care what my local noon is/was. That Base Time is where I make my save games when playing. For example, I make saves at SR, SS, NOON, MR, MS, and MIDNIGHT.

3. When the (Step 2) CONTROL ROOM scene opens, before you do anything else, load the save game from Step 1. When the CONTROL ROOM scene opens, the CONTROL ROOM lights are still white. (Daylight) Note your Base Time. (Mine was 2036 just as it was in Step 1.)

4. Go to external view and see the sun high in the sky even though your Base Time is indicating sunset or night time (for you.)

Now, I tried to correct the error by backing out to the MAIN menu and again loading my Sunset Save. Nope, that didn't get ride of the Celestial Sphere displacement caused by the above steps.
Then, I closed SH4 to Windows. I did not restart the computer nor did I log out of being the current user. I restarted SH4 and reloaded my SUNSET save and all was right with the world. My Base Time was correct and my Celestial Sphere was in sync with my save game.

I hope that you have all been able to follow this. If you have, then you can begin to see the implications and how it absolutely affects game play.
If I had continued on my Patrol without restarting SH4, my combined Celestial Sphere displacement caused by Steps 1 -4 above, and, the typical (and CORRECT) Base Time displacement from Midway, would've made it completely and utterly impossible to calculate Base Time and know whether it is DAY or NIGHT for the ENEMY. Nor would I be able to predict SR, SS, MR, or MS.

I was able to duplicate this error several times before I decided to post my observations.

Propbeanie, this explains your observations. I don't believe this is a FOTRSUv80 RS2 issue. I believe that it is a VANILLA Game issue. I'll try to verify this soon.

All because of the RADIO playing on LOAD game, which happens from time to time.

Runner...
so you are saying that, under certain circumstances, the main application will carryover celestial time from one game instance to another? so the ubisoft programmers forgot to reset game-time from one save to the next save? morons.

that is an amazing discovery.:salute::salute::salute:

Front Runner

01-05-19 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco (Post 2584973)

I'm not ready to blame Ubisoft programmers. I could not reproduce this in Vanilla WOTP. This appears to happen under certain circumstances. I am deleting everything except PRISTINE installation. I am deleting all of my SH4 folders in Documents. I'm going to install and test each iteration of the game carefully.

Stand by.....

propbeanie

01-05-19 12:17 PM

Replies inside "quote" are in blue - Orange for emphasis of FrontRunner's text:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Front Runner (Post 2584972)

For the "mod" app, do you mean Radio Manager? - Yes!

Anyway, I have just performed several tests. I could not get the error to occur in WOTP or TMO/RSRD/OTC/IP. - velly intellesting... I tried to keep everything the same as possible, compatibility settings, running as admin, etc. In each iteration, I started a new career , 1944, Pearl Harbor command, Balao, etc. etc.
I started a new career in FOTRSUv80 RC2 and made three saves, daylight, SS and midnight. The error happened.
I'm still trying to isolate the issue. So stand by for more information.

The thing is, I could get it to replicate in FOTRSUv80 RC2, but using the same procedures, I could not get it to replicate in WOTP, or TMO/RSRD/OTC/IP, at least, not yet.

This is a weird one. I'll try what you suggest and report back again.

I have seen this outside of FotRSU, but not very often - but it may have been FOTRS years ago... (A clue! A clue!) Thanks for all your testing FrontRunner. :salute:

Front Runner

01-05-19 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by propbeanie (Post 2585002)

Replies inside "quote" are in blue - Orange for emphasis of FrontRunner's text:

I have seen this outside of FotRSU, but not very often - but it may have been FOTRS years ago... (A clue! A clue!) Thanks for all your testing FrontRunner. :salute:

OK. Update......
After deleting and/or archiving all of my Document/Save Folders for all iterations of SH4, deleting all copies of the game, then reinstalling a pristine copy of SH4 v1.5 and applying only the FOTRSUv80 RC2, I was able to replicate the error described above by starting a new career, 1944 Pearl Harbor Command, Balao Class boat, outside the harbor. I then played at 512x time compression until I had made 4 saves. Outside the harbor (daylight), at Sunset, at Midnight and at Sunrise. When I close FOTRSUv80 and then start the game again, any one of the individual save games load correctly only if I load them from the Main Menu and only that one time.
If I then try to load any other save game from either the "Esc" key menu while in game, or, selecting Main Menu from the "Esc" key menu and loading from there, the loaded game Celestial Sphere is now seriously out of sync with Base Time. (i.e. Broad daylight at midnight.)

If I Exit to Windows and then start the game again, each individual save game loads correctly but only that once. So, I only get one shot to load the game I am playing. If I decide to load any other save game, while in game, or from the Main Menu, the second one loads with the Celestial Sphere FUBAR!

The only way to get the correct save game to load is to close the game, restart, and load that one game only!

I was unable to reproduce this error in a fresh install of Wolves of the Pacific (Vanilla) using the same parameters.

Next stop......I'll try FOTRSUv71 as I don't remember this happening while I was saving and loading my games while 1x testing.

This does appear to be an FOTRSU issue though. I am looking for someone else to confirm.

For now, I'm done testing for the day.....

:Kaleun_Cheers:

propbeanie

01-05-19 03:35 PM

If I can out of the knee-deep weeds, briars and brambles we're stuck in right now, I'll give similar a whirl FrontRunner... I'm trying to imagine what would do that "time shift"... we've had issues with the AI settings, to the point that it almost seems "backwards", like day is night, and night is day, as far as enemy AI is concerned... is it related?... is it Area 51?... maybe only The Shadow knows... :salute:

Front Runner

01-06-19 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Front Runner (Post 2585038)

OK.

Next stop......I'll try FOTRSUv71 as I don't remember this happening while I was saving and loading my games while 1x testing.

This does appear to be an FOTRSU issue though. I am looking for someone else to confirm.

Update.....I just tested it in FORTSUv71 and I got the same results as in FOTRSUv80 RC2. I guess that shows how infrequently I rely on a previously saved game while in game.

As long as you make serial saves along the way, you can always quit the game, start again and load the save game you wish.

However, as Propbeanie said, if you are playing, and go back, (or forward), to any other save game, and make subsequent save games, ALL of those subsequent save games will be erroneous. You can still go back to a save game previous to that time and THOSE save games will still be OK.

So far, this issue seems to be isolated to FOTRSU supermod.

Propbeanie, which FOTRSU team member might I PM with to assist in finding and fixing this particular issue?

Next stop......I'll try TMO/RSRD.

Front Runner

01-06-19 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Front Runner (Post 2585147)

Next stop......I'll try TMO/RSRD.

OK.....I've tested this issue in TMO/RSRD and TMO/RSRD/OTC/ISP and I have been unable to reproduce the issue using these supermods.

I have discovered another clue!

When loading a previous (or later) save game, using supermod FOTRSUv.*, from within the game, using either the "Esc" key menu or choosing the Main Menu from the "Esc" key menu, the loaded game forgets all of the navigation routing, and probably all of the Celestial Sphere data, that was saved in the original save game. The navigation routing comes up blank and I have to set new waypoints. This does not occur when using WOTP Vanilla or in the TMO/RSRD/OTC/ISP. The information is definitely within the save game, but is not included when loading that save game from within FOTRSU.v*
I have also tried re-loading the same save game over itself. That does not fix the issue. When loading a previous (or later) save game, as close as I can tell, the Celestial Sphere defaults to the time of day when the Career started. I possibly can take a "Sun-Sight" with the Observation Scope to verify this, at least for the azimuth, maybe not the elevation. Hmmmm....
[UPDATE] OK, I've looked at this and as soon as the previous or later save game loads, the AZIMUTH and ELEVATION of the Sun in the misplaced Celestial Sphere are approximately the same in each instance. I have some screenshots using the Observation Periscope at max elevation on the azimuth of the sun and the halo looks about the same in each screenshot.

I can exit the game, start again, load the save game and the navigation routing is intact. I believe this is a big clue that, hopefully, may lead to a solution to this issue. The issue is an incomplete loading of a saved game file from within the game. This issue appears to affect only FOTRSU.v*
I'm thinking that there is a missing ";" ":" "," "." "/" or someother modifier somewhere, most likely contained within the original FOTRSU.

I don't know where to start looking as I assumed that the "Save game/Load game" functions were hard coded in the sh4.exe. Now, I think not. Some modification has prevented a full and accurate loading of a save game from within the FOTRSU.v* supermod.

Front Runner

01-06-19 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Front Runner (Post 2585171)

I don't know where to start looking as I assumed that the "Save game/Load game" functions were hard coded in the sh4.exe. Now, I think not. Some modification has prevented a full and accurate loading of a save game from within the FOTRSU.v* supermod.

My testing shows that this issue does not effect War Patrols, Single Missions or Training.

So, I designed a test. Starting Career at Pearl Harbor, January 1944, Balao Class boat (although I don't believe this matters, then again, everything matters....) [EDIT] It turns out that January 1944 matters. Everything matters!

Start Career. Set course 270. Speed 1/3. Draw your course on the map a good long distance and then make waypoints every 10 degrees of Longitude. This will make sure that there are enough waypoints so that when you load the save game you will see that the waypoints have been saved as well. Note the azimuth of the sun. On course 270 @ 1304 on Jan. 3, 1944, I am reading an azimuth of 299 degrees relative bearing.
Save the game. I saved it as "1304 C270 S299 Daylight".

Then, Ahead Standard and Time Compression 512x until 1501. You are now out of range of Pearl Harbor traffic and you can Time Compress in place at Latitude 21D 14' N Longitude 158D 24' W. ALL STOP @ 0 knots. From here on we will stay in position. Note the azimuth of the sun. I am reading 321 at 1501. Save the game. I saved it as "1501 C270 S321 Daylight".

Then, Time Compression until Sunset (1704). Note the azimuth of the sun, 337. Save the game. "1704 C270 S337SS Sunset"

Then, Time Compression until Midnight. Save the game. "0001 C270 MIDNIGHT".

Then, Time Compression until Sunrise (0615). Note the azimuth of the sun, 204. Save the game. "0615 C270 S204SR Sunrise".

Now, close the game, start again and load any of the above save games and verify that the azimuth of the sun is as you originally recorded it and that all of your waypoints are there.

I loaded the "1501....Daylight" save and verified it as good.

Then, I loaded "1304.....Daylight". Make sure you are on course 270. I used Ahead 1/3 and made sure my rudder was 0. The sun azimuth has changed ever so slightly to 297. (2 degrees less than the 299 originally recorded.) Also, all of my waypoints have disappeared.

Then, I re-loaded the "1501.....Daylight". Sun azimuth 296. No waypoints.

Then, I loaded "1706.....Sunset". C270 Ahead 1/3. The sun azimuth is 296. There are no waypoints.

Then, I loaded "0001.....Midnight". C270 Ahead 1/3. The sun azimuth is 296.
There are no waypoints.

Then, I loaded "0615......Sunrise". C270 Ahead 1/3. The sun azimuth is 296.
There are no waypoints.

Then, I went back to "1304.....Daylight". C270 Ahead 1/3. Sun azimuth is 297. Still 2 degrees less than the original 299. There are no waypoints.

I did several more combinations of tests with the same results including loading "1304.....Daylight" Sun azimuth 299. Verified waypoints OK.
Then reloading the exact same "1304.....Daylight". Sun azimuth 297 and NO waypoints.

My conclusion is that whenever you load a second save game within a single session of Career play, that second save game's Celestial Sphere will revert to nearly the same position it was in at the start of your career upon leaving base, even though all of your save games, individually, load correctly the first time. My reloads were all sun azimuth of 296 - 297 regardless of the time of day that I had made the original save games. Sunrise, Sunset, Midday, Noon, Midnight etc. The missing waypoints upon reloading a save game is a BIG indicator that this is happening.

I really hope that you are all following this. It is important for FOTRSU.

Once again, as long as you are playing and making serial saves without loading a previous (or later) save game while in game, then all of your save games are probably OK. The best practice I can recommend until this problem is solved, is that whenever you wish to load a save game while playing FOTRSU.v* is to close SH4, reopen it, then load the save game.

I'm now going to check Single Mission play to see if this happens there as well.

Front Runner

01-06-19 04:18 PM

As far as my testing goes, this issue only affects Career Mode in FOTRSU.v* (Maybe FOTRS original but I don't have a copy that I can test.)
I have been UNABLE to replicate the issue in WOTP Vanilla, TMO/RSRD, TMO/RSRD/OTC/ISP, and in FOTRSU.v* Single Missions including Sub School and War Patrol. It only affects Career Mode in FOTRSU.

It comes down to this, when in Career Mode in FOTRSU.v*, the save games "write" the correct data, and, "read" the correct data only the first time it is loaded, after that, loading or re-loading any subsequent "load game", it seems that there occurs an "incomplete reading" of the data. I've tried using an old archived copy of FileManager.dll. The game worked but the same issue persisted. I made sure that MultiSH4 was running as administrator. That didn't solve the issue.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Meanwhile, I can still play Career Mode FOTRSU.v80 making sure that I don't load one save game over another without first quitting and re-starting the game.

propbeanie

01-06-19 07:08 PM

I'm following closely, and trying to think of something that would load in the Campaign, that does not load otherwise, that could influence what you're seeing... there are certain files called in Campaign.cfg that load in the campaign only, others that load in some or all of the game, but again, nothing that would directly affect 'time'... :hmmm: - This might be some deep divin' 'vestigatin'...

A couple of thoughts: 1. FotRSU is based on FOTRS, and v1.2 & 1.3 are available on Subsim.com 2. FOTRS is based on TMO v1.7... I've got v1.6x somthing or other for SH4 v1.4, so I'll try your Test Mission on those... :salute:

Front Runner

01-06-19 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by propbeanie (Post 2585263)

It’s not really affecting time at all. It’s affecting the background that’s loaded. The base time of the backup and the load are the same. The water is probably the same. The celestial sphere that loads appears to be the default from starting the career from “in base” rather than the one in the save game. The waypoints are also missing. It’s like it loads parts of the save game along with whatever happens when you start the career from “in base.”. All the data in the save game is correct as can be seen by quitting and restarting. Some of it is either not being read properly or is being overwritten when loading a save game over an already loaded save game. It’s almost like a double exposure. What is key here is that upon opening the second save game, the program thinks you are just starting your career from in base and provides no waypoints and the default celestial sphere from 1300 hours the day you start your first patrol. It seems like it's combining two data sets, one from the save came and one from the career start.

propbeanie

01-07-19 07:51 AM

That was why I used 'time', in the apostrophes, was that it is the appearance of a time passage, or time and space not synchronizing properly. It could be an error of commission, or more likely, and error of omission, maybe an invalid portion of data that overwrites something that it shouldn't... dunno. I won't have time to set things up to try out my old TMO until this evening, mostly because I haven't found the mod files yet... surprise surprise... I do have FOTRS v1.2 on a computer though, and hope to get to testing it this afternoon. I'll let you know what I find with it... :salute:

Front Runner

01-07-19 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by propbeanie (Post 2585318)

:Kaleun_Applaud:

merc4ulfate

01-07-19 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Front Runner (Post 2577977)

Base Time is as drifty as a Seaman Recruit on their first day at Great Lakes Naval Training Center!

I do not even pay attention to time as a scale in this game. Most of it is a hard coded issue that will never be resolved. Is it visibly day or night is all I care about. The only reason I find time to be any value at all is if one is modding and you need to set it inside the mod for entrance and exits.

I was taught early on in this game to never save over a save . It has a name and it is called ... pain.

Do not do that.

Front Runner

01-07-19 02:32 PM

Here is the issue.....
(1) In FOTRSU.v* Career Mode, BALAO class boat, (TAMBOR sometimes does not exhibit this issue), when you save game at midnight, with all of your navigational waypoints set, and it's dark.....

(2)......and then quit the game and load that save game again on game restart, and it is midnight, with all of your navigational waypoints set, and it's dark, in EXACTLY the same game state as it was in when you first saved it.....

(3).....and then you reload that very same save game that you just loaded, without quitting the game first, and it's midnight, BUT now, all of your waypoints are missing, and, instead it's, broad daylight, then this issue has serious AI Friendly and Enemy timing issues if you continue to play the erroneous, FUBAR load, not to mention that your Base time is now even more out of whack than "normal."

Is it daylight for you and dark of night for them? Or vice-versa?

(4)......and then you quit the game and reload that very same save game and everything is EXACTLY as it was when you saved it the first time. Midnight, waypoints, dark.

In other words, you only get one accurate save game load per game session. Any subsequent loads are FUBAR. IFAIK, it does not appear to be a WRITE issue (or an over-write issue.) It is a READ issue which occurs on any subsequent save game load made after the FIRST save game load.

You must quit the game and restart and load that save game to get the game into the same state as it was when you first saved it. The save game file is fine. There is nothing wrong with it. It reloads to the same game state, but ONLY the first time on game startup.

This is NOT the old "hey, why is it light out when my (base time) (onboard) clock says it's night time."

This issue affects ONLY FOTRSU.v* Career Mode (AFAIK). It does not affect WOTP Vanilla, nor does it affect TMO, TMO/RSRD, RFB, Ralles Mod Pack, nor many other variations of Vanilla, and Mod files I have tested. I don't believe it to be hard coded. If it were, all of the aforementioned games and mods would have the same issue. They don't!

propbeanie

01-07-19 02:49 PM

I'm wondering about scene.dat, which has sun & moon phases (and the terns), but I haven't gone through the whole thing yet... surely it's not "backwards" with night is day and day is night?... :roll: - a quick comparison on one computer is that there is not difference between it and several other modded games, but I have not been on my computer with a "pristine" stock... If it does match "stock", why have it in the mod?... :salute:

mikesn9

01-08-19 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate (Post 2585382)

Thanks Merc, I've been contemplating saying the same thing.. what matters in the game: Is it dark or light out? and: What is the weather?

Front Runner

01-08-19 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesn9 (Post 2585491)

Thanks Merc, I've been contemplating saying the same thing.. what matters in the game: Is it dark or light out? and: What is the weather?

Please try to understand this particular issue. AFAIK, it affects only FOTRSU.v* and only in Career Mode BALAO, sometimes TAMBOR (boat testing continues.) See my simplified description of this issue here......

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...8&postcount=35

Front Runner

01-08-19 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by propbeanie (Post 2585409)

Propbeanie - I looked at scene.dat from the PRISTINE folder and from the FOTRSU.v80 RC2 folder. There are significant differences. I don't think the scene.dat is the issue though. If it were, I'd be unable to load ANY accurate save games.

For those of you interested and following this issue, The first save game load is OK. The second, third, fourth, etc. save game load, without first quitting the game and restarting is FUBAR. The data contained in the save game(s) are correct. The reading of the data is correct only on the first loading of that save game. The reading of the data is FUBAR if you re-load that "EXACTLY the same" save game. There is something very weird happening and we are trying to track it down.

You might not care whether or not the AI elements of this game are timed correctly to the day/night cycle, but I sure do! Especially with all of the detailed work that the FOTRSU team is doing! I'm not going to speak for Propbeanie, but I believe he cares as well.

If you are playing any versions or combinations of mods other than FOTRSU, then this issue is not affecting you (AFAIK).

merc4ulfate

01-08-19 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Front Runner (Post 2585501)

Perhaps I will try to save a game and then replicate it. I never used saved games. My only save points are entering and exiting port so they are my only load points. If I die on patrol then I start over. I use the old dead is dead scheme when I play.

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