Will, kind of…. I have a tube with mirror and lens of a know length, so you can get two image’s and when you superimpose them on a calibrated system you find distance and you can find height doing that to, just different technique. Now with that , I'm not the a good math person, but if I know the height of something and using a machine that will give me the angle between that height and the straight line to the target that I’m looking at it( not sure if it cos or sin), I can find the length to it. using Trig

The problem I was having was that there is NO white x.
I was learning with TMO2.5 and all that showed on the screen was a black
slash mark, which didn't make a lot of sense.
Maybe I should try using RFB or something besides TMO?:06:

A perfect AOB is the targets course relative to your sub. You can mark the ships course and use the compass or if you have good stad measurements, when you ask for speed, you get course as well. Simply spin the AOB wheel to the course. Course in real life, they did the math or simply guessed.

Nice thread, I remember when I first tried manual targeting, totally changed the experience :yep:

The method in the game, matching the WL with the top of the mast, was how it was done. There are a couple of WW2 periscopes in the Washington Navy Yard Navy Museum. There is a sliding plate at the eyepiece that moves up and down when you turn the range knob. One image moves. The double image (put base of one at top of the other) is not as easy to use as a camera range finder (although that could be due to degradation of old optics), but it was designed to work at much longer distances and without a long enough range finder baseline.

This is a link to the 1946 periscope manual. One thing I found interesting is that the stadimeter (at least in 1946) could be rotated 90 degrees to be able to use ship length as well as mast or funnel height.
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/pscope/chap4c.htm#4J

In "Run Silent Run Deep" there are a few descriptions of attack approaches where the range is estimated using the stadimeter. In a couple of long range early estimates the captain estimates the height of the mast above the deck (not WL) and uses that as his reference height. As the range shortens he improves the range estimates.

Tom

Yep, that's how it was done. I too have read how the stadimeter could be moved both vertically and horizontally depending on your desire to calculate for either range or angle on bow. The vertical placement measured height, the horizontal placement measured length......both measurements were compared to what the "known" estimated measurements should be. A tool like the Range Omnimeter was used to help in calculating the difference between the two (so was a quick mathematician on the firing party). The estimated range came from the height calculation, the AoB of the target came from the length measurement difference.

The stock game needs to be corrected for several things before a good manual firing solution can be gleaned. The mast heights need to be corrected; the Field of View needs to be corrected allowing the scopes Telemeter Divisions to be used for measurement. For instance, when the game was first released the jap CV Hiryu had a mast height of 20 meters (65.6 feet). After a lot of gnashing of teeth, the Developers changed some of the worst offenders (as memory serves me, it was with their 1.4 patch), however their new mast height for the Hiryu is still off the mark by about 6 meters. One of the things you'll run into is some mods don't pay a bit of attention to this type of thing. Take TMO 2.5 and check the Recognition Manual for the Hiryu. The mast height is back to the original figure of 20 meters. To read an accurate stadimeter measurement it should read about 37 meters (121.4 feet). The difference in the height will throw off a stadimeter reading by about half the range it should read.

It's too bad the game limit's us to only using the stadimeter for range finding with the vertical process. Believe me, if there were a way to make the stadimeter work as the real thing I'd of done it. But the stadimeter is "hard coded" in the game (much like the math formula it uses to determine the stadimeters reading), there's nothing we can do about its short comings.

One thing I know we could do is make the Recognition Manual list more than one height measurement. Allowing a player to choose which particular spot on the target you wish to use when matching the stadimeter water line to it. You'd have to have a better way of telling the TDC/Position Keeper what height to use when you do the stadimeter second image, but for a long time I've considered doing it. The first part of the issue is done with the correction of the Field of View to the measuring device (the scopes view) with Optical Targeting Correction. What's left is to take each target ship and measure to the various spots on the ship (the ships funnel, the top of the bridge, the ships deck), put those measurements into the RM, then make a dial for the ships particular height that's used by the stadimeter and make a range estimate using that particular spot. If you can't see the mast top, use the targets funnel instead. Just something I've had in the back of my mind for a while now. :hmm2:

So no come back as to why there is no white x in TMO2.5?
Or did no one notice this?:06:

I would love to be able to choose the top of the funnel where possible; the mast is just to skinny and with its growing and shrinking, it's often very tricky to get a good reading. But I guess it is one way to try to simulate the uncertainty that existed in RL (assuming the developers made a conscious decision.)

Tom

The way they put the stadimeter together, they left themselves only the one location for figuring range. However, there are ways around using the mast top as the only placement. I've had many targets using the funnel, bridge top, carrier flight deck, with some of my mods. The only problem.... you have to pick just one spot for each ship. RFB uses my process when it has the merchants using the mast heights, the warships using the funnels, the CV's using the flight deck. But, I see the potential of setting a dial, telling the TDC what height to use, then using the stadimeter to mark the spot where the dimension your using is located. You could pick and choose the spot you want depending on the distance, or weather issue that may hamper you finding the mast top.

There is one problem though with using something other than the mast top. The lower you go within the scope view, with the water line mark, the larger the error is if your off a bit with the marking. How much is a bit? Just one pixel width could have the range found to be 100's of yards off!! The dev's put this greater error into the mix to simulate the fact that a target that's near the water line is expected to be farther away in distance than when you take a reading in the middle and towards the top of the scopes view. This gives the effect of creating greater errors with targets farther away, than ones near. Tricky weren't they?!

Wow.. I reallly... REALLY REALLY suck at this :(

I'm about to go back to auto shooting.. I'm close, kinda close but I'm shooting from the hip and im missing.

I know its got to do with the AOB..

Don't give up now...

AoB simply put... I think
 

When turning the dial on the right for AoB and pressing the send to TDC you'll see the top left dial has changed position.

Wat you basically do when entering the AoB in the TDC is entering the target's true course (which you can see on the top left dial).


Make sense?

Well shoot that's pretty cool, I figured the real life version used a split image I just didn't know how close the game was or was not to reality. Thanks for the info guys it's kind of cool learning this stuff. Scruvy I do hope you find a way to do the selector switch, those masts at more than a couple thousand yards are killer.

Speed and AoB are both important. Get the speed wrong and the torp heads behind the target, or leads it too much. The AoB is the tricky part because it's left to your judgement to figure out what the angle is.

In real life a Captain could depend on his binocular vision (using two eye's, not just one) when on the bridge to get a good depth perception of what a target AoB was. After practice, any crew member became quite good at it. The game however doesn't allow for this. The bridge view in-game is still only as good as the flat, 2 dimensional screen it is shown on. There's no way of simulating depth perception with a monitor (I don't think even using 3D glasses and a 3D screen would do it justice). So we have monocular vision which is like you going to the window and covering one eye, it makes quite a difference in what you can perceive.

As in real life the periscope view is indeed monocular vision. That's why the boys over at research and development came up with a stadimeter that could measure both height and length of a target....the length to help with figuring AoB of a target. Regrettably the function wasn't put into the games stadimeter, nor was their correct field of view that allowed for measuring length or height with the tools available (like the Telemeter Divisions of the scope lens). So, your left to figure AoB pretty much on your own.

One big help is to plot your target on the Nav Map and use the protractor to figure the targets tract and AoB. It's simple, accurate, and it gives you a better understanding of what the firing party actually did when a target firing solution was made. No one piece of the pie was counted on to make the firing solution. It took several men (anywhere from 12 to 15) to make up the Torpedo Firing Party, each contributing their input in making each torpedo firing count.

In-game ...."you the man"! The duties of a dozen men are on your shoulders with manual targeting. Now that's what makes the game fun!!

ALL you wanted to know and more
 

If you want to do the research go on the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks--Techniques, tactics, tutorials, videos (in this forum).


:up:There you will find 256 or something post go to the very first post and read the next 30 post or more and I think you will want to take a break, but you will know, it’s all there. Now those, well most of them, some are gone now, who did those post back to SH3 or so are the ones you are talking to now…Not me though, to dumb…:D:har:


Hope it helps:yeah:

Yes!! I get it, but what I don't get is how to get range properly and speed.

I can do the three minute mark with my sonar guy, but thats not always doable in every situation (When a merchant pops up out of no where you have no time)

using the stadimeter thing.. I level the periscope with the horizon line of the ocean and start to line the ships bottom of the hull with the top of the ship.

I get that, but sometimes its hard to do.. Do I line up the flag poles? I mean its annoying.

Then speed thing.. if I wait another minute or so and check range again, it will give me my speed right.. But even then, it shows sometimes being wayyyyy off.

it seems I could do range and speed calculations and get different results each time.


Im going to do screen shots of my process and post them here.

give me a little and please critique me.. thanks

What I'd do if I were you would be to go to a single war patrol, sometime after you can get radar and use easy settings, and go out and find a ship. You have been playing long enough to know where they are. As soon as you find one save the game. You can than use this save to get some target practice. Keep it as simple as you can, your just learning, you can add more difficult situations later once you get a handle on what's happening.

Use the radar to get the speed and course using the three minute rule.
Radar sweeps are 20 seconds so wait till the contact jumps ahead and start the stopwatch than mark it's position. Wait three minutes and when it jumps again mark that position. Do this two or three times and than connect all the marks. This will give you good speed and target course. Use the link I gave you earlier to figure AoB. All you need now is range and bearing.

With radar you have plenty of time to do all this. You can wait for the target to get closer before you need range/bearing, at close range the steadimeter will work OK, check the attack map for accuracy of your firing solution and adjust as necessary Speed and AoB should be good so range is all that should be all you may need to adjust. You do not need a perfect firing solution till the target is within your comfortable range, that should be something like 800 to start out to 2000 yards as you improve your skills.

With radar you have time to try different set ups etc. Just keep replaying that save till you get it down pat than move onto something more changeling. Remember KISS, Keep It Simple Submariner. :D

Magic

Sound to me you're not giving the TDC the correct vessel ID if at all, so just to make sure. (no offense :oops:).

Before any input to the TDC you have to ID the target.
When manually identifying a target via the identification book don't forget to
A) lock the vessel in TBT or periscope and B) 'mark it' so the name of the vessel you're looking at is in the top left corner at TBT or periscope station.
Or, lock the vessel on TBT or periscope and ask your XO (or which ever) to ID it for you.
If you didn't ID the target, any input (speed, AoB/True heading or range) will mean nothing to the TDC and you'll get what you're describing.

PS_ Any time you send information to the TDC you have to be locked on the target.


Getting speed is done via the 3min rule and the Nomograph, don't wait for 4 or 5min's but wait 6mins, 9min's, 12min's and so on (keeps things simple :03:).


As for range I use the stadimeter, sometimes even from 8000yrds out. The range will be off a couple of 100yrds but I recalculate range starting from 4000yrds then every 10* or 15* degrees to fine tune it, keeping an eye on the targets heading on the TDC (sometimes the true heading I put in changed slightly and I adjust accordingly).



When I started this game I had contact updates turned on to get comfortable with the manual targeting and I used the PK and attack map to check my calculations and inputs (speed, true heading and range), now I'm confie enough and don't use the attack map that way anymore.
I still use contact updates (early war) so I have a dot on the Nav. map to make things easier (the game cheats, so do I :O:) But as soon as I get Radar I turn it off, I'm learning ColonelSandersLite method as seen in his patrol vid's" cause I like the way he does it :up:.

Side note:
Would like to see how he or anyone els does it without radar (early war), then I might switch off the contact updater if its easy enough.

On topic:
I never had a vessel pop out of nowhere, the only time that happens is in heavy fog but you or your crew member still must have heard it on the hydrophones.
Anyway, you'll have three options:
1_ Keep listening to the hydro's and figure out if the sound is getting closer or not and guesstimate the lot.
2_ Use sonar (Don't forget to adjust the hydrophone otherwise the sonar ping will miss).
3_ Keep tailing the sound contact until the weather clears up.

If you think you don't have enough time or made a soup of it, let the vessel pass and try again with more distance between you and it.

If I understand you correctly, you try to guesstimate how deep the target is in the water then try to put that guesstimating on top of the mast.:06:
If so... Don't, use the artificial horizon and place that on top of the mast (or any part according to the identifications book).
If I didn't, my mistake.... :88)

Before I attack a vessel I make sure I know which target I'm looking at, its speed and it heading and preset it in the TDC, I didn't send it though.
I start my attack 5Nm in front of my target and go to periscope depth with scope up when I feel its getting to close to me, then wait until the silhouette (dot) is shown on the Nav.map.
Having all the necessary tools for the TDC I lock on target, switch on the PK, send preset speed to TDC (send it twice), then range and finally its true heading (send it twice as well). I even set my torpedoes at depth and open my tubes.

This however (except for the torpedoes), has a big disadvantage as I can't see nor make out its mast but every consecutive measurement taken after and specially the one's after 4000yrds gives me a near perfect solution when its time to fire my fish.

By the time its time to fire them I'm 90ft under looking at my attack map and wait for the torpedo trackline to pass 0*.
At night or in bad weather getting a good firing solution is harder because you have less time to get a good range estimate but because I already pre-set 2/3 of the solution getting good ranges by stadimeter is less stressful.

You are missing the point. If you track it's position, then you can find out where it is going in the future. Then you have the advantage of dictating the place where he is attacked. You don't have to fire the torpedoes immediately!

If a merchant is popping up out of nowhere then you should reduce your time compression to give your crew a better reaction time. (But in the RFB manual they describe also a weird detection bug depending on horizon lattitude or something)

How long are the times between the range/bearing measurements? If you have trouble getting an accurate range, and only let the target move a few degrees in bearing in your persicope, then the target course and speed calculation will be inaccurate. It's not because you are doing it the wrong way. You are likely feeding it data that cannot be trusted. If you locked the periscope on the target, then only range is the untrusty one. Give the target more time to move around you, as time will average out the error.

Thanks guys..


HertogJan, I have map contacts on and have the computer ID the target..

Here is my steps, please let me know where I'm going wrong.. Screen shots and all



This is just the practice torpedo school thing..


Im at P depth..

Sonar spots a contact,

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...psd3efcc02.png

I tell him to follow him, so its smooth

I mark the location

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps8497b691.png

start my timer, wait till 3 min. and mark again

and measure

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps60a948fd.png

FWIW, this is not accurate, didn't really time it, just wanted to give you all an Idea of how I go about doing this.


Now I have the targets speed.. Or do I???


Now I have to get the AOB, which is where I suck at badly!!!

I understand the idea of it and get the concept, I just can't figure it out, even with map contacts, lol


Sadly for some reason with this test mission, it doesn't show the black dot, so just make believe its there.. this is what I do

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps4d8e6323.png

I go in front of the contact, I angle which was I think he's going and stop at the middle/end of the contact.

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps2ae13c47.png

Now I go straight to the middle of MY sub

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps9ef74c2f.png

I now have a number of 65, right..

So.. I know he's going to the right of me so I know now to position the AOB dial that way and bring it to the number of 65... right?

So.. First thing I do now, is go into my periscope and lock on the target and id it.

Once I get the ID, I then set the speed that I calculated which was 13 (I know it wasn't accurate, just giving you an Idea of my process)

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps7a40e542.png

and hit the little red button on the top to send it to the tdc.. I sometimes click that red button a bunch of times to make sure its locking.. I dunno, I saw a video where a guy explained its buggy sometimes?

So now I got the speed in there I now hit the PK button

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps55553a93.png

Now time to set the AOB

of 65

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps8764b910.png

Then I hit the red button two times to send it to the TDC

time for the range.. right

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps09a6ffb5.png

putting the center of the scope to where I "think" the ships bottom is in the water

then hit the stedi button

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...psac87b7b0.png

I bring it down JUST UNTIL that left pole hits the bottom of the image and let go, then hit the red button


I check the Attack map to see which way my torps will go.

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...pse77a0996.png

doesn't look bad IMO.

Fire all 4


and...

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...psd9dc5705.png

yep..

Missed.

Even though I didn't do my speed right, if anything I put a speed of 13 or something, IMO that ship goes much faster, so I should of missed rear anyway.

What am I doing wrong.