Yet the universities get money based on the number of graduates, which leads to the grading system being pretty lax. The only time I have ever heard someone failing a course (bar some simple exams on certain books that are done just for the credits) was when a person from my seminar group turned in a 10 pages long essay filled with lots of personal feelings and plans on what should be done on the actual seminar thesis, whereas it was supposed to be approximately 40 pages of scientific research and the very last step before the master's thesis.

But otherwise? Sure, these days they say that you have to graduate in 7 years (the goal is 5, the average is somewhere between 5 and 6), but if you won't? Just go cry the powers-that-be a river, and they will give you more time simply because they won't admit having wasted 7 years on you for nothing.

I'm not saying we have it easy. Having quite a lot of experience from working with university students from various other countries, I'd say we are doing pretty well. They have agreed on that as well (and in fact been a lot more ardent about it than I am). But money certainly talks nevertheless.


Not entirely true. You can also, in some cases, be admitted based on your grades in the matriculation exam alone or have those grades help you along with good test score. It depends on school. My history department, at least when I applied, took 20 based on the test and another 20 based on the test and the matriculation exam. I had pretty good grades, above average, but I wasn't even considered to the latter quota.

And for the record, when I applied, there were approximately 450 applicants. I thought that was hard. In fact I had it easy: for some programmes there can be over 2,000 applicants from which 66 are selected.

Takeda, now take your first post #2, your latest reply #19, and then compare that to the article by Hartwich, the full original one. And then explain to me what your anger and your privatization argument has to do with that article's content.

:doh:

Next time skip the part with the cryptic hints and mysterious allusions, and just set up a post with your plain argument and points, and skip the comedy wrap around it. The result with be immediate. People will know what you want so say, people will know why you think what you say, people will not become increasingly irritated and angered.

Oh, and leaving out the personal sidekicks would be deeply appreciated.

And on Hartwich, maybe not the messiah to save the world, but probably slightly more than just my "blogger hero". I occasionally read him on the German site that I first linked and where he got reprinted, the original publishing was in a NZ newspaper. His articles to me makes sense, usually. He is no neocon or conservative by American standards, but a liberal by European standards, which probably means libertarian by American standards.

He just reported on his experiences in job interviews. If only I knew what your problem was. Next time, just say it, instead of sending people around circles, hunting wild guesses and assumptions about your motives.

Aside from the test(s), are there any other non-quantative criteria? Here in the 'states we have those in the form of persuasive essays, interviews, portfolios, etc. What I have read indicates that Finland does not use such things, but you would be a more authoratative source, seeing as you are there and have gone through it.''

And here we have the crux of the problem bewteen you and I. I shouldn't have to say it; you should argue honestly from the start. That is what elicits my contempt.

Skybird, stop playing games. The blogger complains that the quality of students coming from postgraduate education is of diminishing quality. This is true. However, those are the symptoms of the disease. I have offered the disease itself. Correct it, and your blogger's complaints vanish. To quote from the blogger himself:

This is what happened: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...2&postcount=19

It cannot be more clear and obvious. Oh, and I'm not angry, Skybird. You all have never seen me angry.

It depends on the school. There is an interview in some programmes as far as I know. In those of theatre and the elementary school teacher at least, both being some of the more difficult ones to get in. Whereas the constant reason for wondering is why the doctor programmes don't have one, when it's still an education tailored for such an employment.

But on the other hand we don't need letters of recommendation or other such stuff. We apply on our own and see where it goes, one way or another.

It might be worth noting also that when in the university, you might still need to apply for something every now and then and then the requirements might vary. I have had to do it twice. First to get in the museum studies I had to write a CV and a letter detailing why I want to include these studies in my degree. It wasn't just a formality: 40 applied, 20 were taken. And last spring when I applied for the teacher studies, I had to both provide a similar letter as well as to participate in both group- and personal interview. That, on the other hand, was a formality: there weren't enough applicants, so everyone was accepted. But I obviously didn't know it back then. :)

If you ever happen to get lost in Finland (any possible divine entity help you), I'd be glad to show you around our school system. I have a few contacts here and there.

Ah, okay. That would be somewhat similar to what happens stateside, but the process has really become a formality. Here, those students are getting in regardless.

I likely will take you up on that sometime. :up:

Hey...
you assume Skybird knows the stuff behind the first page of the book.
he does not, many do not.

YOU on the other hand are inside that system, specific to your country.
you can provide us with some insight.

and those that do not have that insight, do not need to be talked to like children, or their hands held through a discussion.

remember, he does not knwo what he is talking about, and as such brings this article here to gather points of View from others.

It's like at the end of that initial post he asks "what is your experience and point of View on the matter?"

I found that with your hand holding you ridiculed him.
there is no need to. because he is trying to gain an understanding that he does not have.
Tries to
Get a clue about something he dont know squat about, and has an uninformed of MISinformed opinion about.

He rather ask you.

If you can not reply, and teach, without that smug, rolleye expression...
Then by all means do not.

Hm?

We are Noobs at the subject. Treat us as such.

Since this is your first day on the forum, I'll explain to you that Skybird's entire argumentative style is completely fraudulent. It is based on the belief that he knows better that you, me and everybody else. It relies on ad hominems, circular logic and various other fallacies. He deals with people in a high-handed fashion and expect us to sit and listen as though he is the sage on the stage. All I did was give him a taste of his own medicine.

Now, if you can see past that, do you have anything to add?

Great, me and my big mouth again. :haha:

Techically you don't even need me: since the teaching in most cases is public by the law, you can just contact any given school and ask if you can come to observe their classes. Or just go there and say you want to do it, I suppose that would still follow the idea of the law as well. Not many people do that, but it's your right.

I just can't resist participating in these discussions, since people from abroad have some really funny ideas about the Finnish education. And Finland in general too, as I have gently tried to point out to some of our exchange students trying to convince me that I'm living in the best country ever, not the other way around.

I'd say the thing we do right is not any single thing in the education system, but the mentality. It's not unique to us, but we take this idea of "lifelong education" pretty seriously. People are encouraged to keep up with the development, to go study even at older age and it's supported in many ways. I have often seen a lot of older folks sitting at the lectures right next to me. Some are doing the whole degree. So in that way it's not "graduate and get out". But it can't work if people don't really want it. If you ask me, the myth of "Finnish education" is based on that.

The Irish admissions system is quite a bit different to what you guys are describing.

Final exams in high school are taken on at least 7 subjects - with English, Irish & Maths being compulsory. You can take the subject exams at Ordinary or Higher difficulty levels. Grades go A1/A2/B1/B2/B3 and so on, with a certain number of points awarded for each grade depending on difficulty.

A Higher lever A1 is worth 100 points, an A2 worth 90, whereas an A1 grade on an Ordinary level paper is worth only 60 points and an Ordinary A2 worth 50.

For university application, points from your best 6 subjects are added together, giving you however many out of 600.

Every offered course in the country is ranked by supply of places and demand for those places. Higher-demand and low-availability courses such as Medicine or dentistry tend to have extremely high points requirements in or around the 590 mark. General Arts programs tend to require 400-ish.

This system gets a lot of flak for being cold and somewhat remorseless, but I certainly found it reasssuring when I went through it. You work hard, you get the course you want. No bloody interviews or personal statements.

Absolutely!

IF he knows everything, and really is the king of the Books, has an intimate knowledge of the subjects he starts to talk about, he is the freaking arrogant GOD.

Sort of:
He does not realize that he indeed does treat others like he is in a superior position, from the top down.
I (too) fail to see him as someone overly secure of his opinion, knowledge and convictions.
Maybe because i am using YOUR language instead of mine.
its not an excuse, but a fact - we hardly manage to convey the finer points and variations we wish to.

However.
you are a teacher.
If from your point of view he knows Squat...
Either teach and correct him with patience or sit and laugh at his ridicule and ignorance.

Or, let me put it in a more personal way (independent of what i think of Skybird, his posts and his Arguments):

Come on, you are better than THAT.:up:

After all he provides us with a very wide array of subjects to discuss...

I'm glad that you do participate in these discussions. You bring a lot of thought and sanity to this forum.

more even.
I bet, on a concious or unconcious level, the way he pokes a stick at people with his knowledge that might be interpreted as lacking and idiotic...

he does spawn some reactions.

With his big opening statements he gets the ball rolling.

and that is cool, for at the end of the thread, i have learned something even if i have not participated in the discussion.

:06:

And that sounds like it would be a massive step in the right direction for American schools. You get in if you score well enough to get in. No non-qual evaluations, no satellite schools, no industry.

If I post pornographic images I'll get a reaction. If I post a rant about Jews I'll get a reaction. If I post links to pirate websites I'll get a reaction.

A reaction is not always a good thing.

And no huge business of overpriced qualification test prepping courses which people pay an arm and leg for just to force themselves to actually read those test books even once and in some rare cases learn to write a half sensible essay. Though being literate doesn't always seem to be a requirement of getting in a Finnish university from what I have gathered, so perhaps they knew it before they participated in a course.

Absolutely. The standard SAT prices at $50.00 US (foreigners get to pay $63.00 US). There are also a series of SAT prep books that range in cost from $10-$15 US, and even a practice SAT that you can take for $50.00 too.

When graduation comes around, and new teachers are looking to be certified, they get to take the PRAXIS series of tests. Depending on your content area, that will be between six and ten individual exams, which are priced at $85.00 US per test. Yes, per test. If you have to reschedule, you pay another $30.00 US. Scores are available digitally, but if you want an official paper copy of the scores, which all states require for certification, you can pay another $15.00 US processing fee per score.

Yeah, something's wrong with the program.

EDIT: Oh never mind, they've changed the prices. Not all tests are $85. Some are a whole lot more now. Check out the link for details:

http://www.ets.org/praxis/about/fees

The music exams are now up to $139.00 each, and you need all three of them for certification, in addition to the numerous general exams. Nice.

I see what you mean, and i also understand you have gotten my message.
Good Job.

so if you are good enough, and do not have what it takes to get the test and paper you need to get a job...

Ur fudged.

and without these Certs your previous Graduation is useless because incomplete to become a teacher.


Therefor education is tied to money from A to Z.
...:huh:

seriously o_O

Man, that is rich. You must be one of the most self-righteous people I ever stumbled over.

In your own words: before you lecture others to stop playing games and to argue honestly from the start, learn to follow your own advise.

IIRC, and I may be wrong on this since it has been some time since I've sat an exam other than the odd H&S course, but the primary reason, or at least one of the primary reasons behind the multiple choice exam is that it is generally marked by computers. It's a bit like, in the UK, when you buy a lottery ticket, you ink the appropriate box and the machine scans it and inputs the numbers to print the ticket, and then you win sod all. There was once a time when teachers would use a see-through bit of paper with the wrong answers inked out and then overlay it on the paper to see what questions were answered incorrectly or correctly. I think these were on practice papers which are, IIRC, just copies of previous exams.

There's still a human element in it, I believe that the marking process is over-seen by a human factor, however otherwise I think it is mainly computer fed. Obviously there are still exams that require proper written answers or drawings, and there is also coursework, so that's not done by computers.

In regards to meeting quotas, I am reminded of last years GCSE English fiasco in which some students took the exam in January 2012 and some in June. When the results for the exams in January came through it was decided by the exam boards that too many students were going to get C or above and so they pushed the boundary up and there was a qualification gulf between those who took the exam in January and those who took it in June.

Here's a BBC link from the time:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20175633

So there are definitely 'quotas' there which the exam boards feel that they are under pressure to meet, errors in exam papers are not uncommon (my GCSE Geography paper came with an extra page correcting a question on it) but the 2012 fiasco was the first time they'd been caught out by it. Although there have been accusations over the years that exams are too easy because the government is pressuring the exam boards to maintain a good rate of grades to meet figures.

At the end of the day though, in the UK, grades are becoming increasingly meaningless, the job market has shrivelled, particularly in my local area, so University leavers find themselves stocking supermarket shelves. There has been, in recent years, an increase in moves towards bringing back apprenticeships and make education more practical towards engaging school and university leavers into the workplace instead of the jobcenter.
Unfortunately in any economic downturn it's the young and old who cop it first, the young can't get in, and the elderly get booted out and anyone else in the middle has to fight each other to get a job while the companies chortle with glee because they can treat their employees however they like because there will always be a replacement to fill the gap.

It's a bad situation, but we're in a recession, that's how it goes, you just have to hang on until the boom times return.