Hey no problem and definitely not needing an apology :03:

with German's slow down in manufacturing at this moment
 

With German's slow down in manufacturing at this moment, perhaps it should just issue 'holocaust coupons' that can be redeemed for German goods at a reduced price. That way Germany can slightly help its own workers.

sorry, but if Siemens, IBM and Hollerith couldn't give any precise number, I can't either. But the number can't be bigger than the actual number of them on the occupied territories.

fixed.:salute:

Protesting Christians?:har:
Ok, so yes, indeed, priests had their own triangle in Auschwitz and catholic priests were a similar group to scientists and politicians, i.e they were caught and executed/sent to camps via planned actions. (not like casual civilians)

:har:
Do you really think that they need that money for food?:har:
http://incogman.net/wp-content/uploa...T-JEW-LIAR.jpg

When I argue that a numerical figure is incorrect, it is usually because I have a figure that I think is correct. Otherwise it's all just hot air.

:doh:
What proportion of the clergy in your own country was rounded up by the nazis and sent to concentration camps?
Of course that proportion wouldn't include all those that were rounded up and executed en masse in 1939 under the sonderfahndungsbuch lists.

5.2mil - 6mil is the generally accepted, estimated, figure.

You think that's too many or too few?

If you had read post no 11, you would know that what I'm trying to argue is not any 'numerical figure' but the way in which they came up with it.
Let me give you an example:
The original calculation of the Auschwitz victims was around 3 million.
How did they come up with such a figure?
The German blew up most of the "death" facilities i.e gas chambers and crematories. For the purpose of building a museum in the former camp, these facilities were rebuilt on the basis of German plans. What is more, the Germans burnt most of the documents concerning the prisoners. (of course you will find idiots who claim that some transports "went straight to gas", thus they avoided being officially recorded. When I was in the secondary school, my history teacher asked the guide in the museum if that was possible. His answer was that 'off the record' executions could only take place outside organized camps, therefore such unregistered transports could not take place)
Coming back to the calculations. The 3 million figure was achieved through some math calculations such as theoretical efficiency of gas chambers per hour, theoretical efficiency of crematories etc.
The estimation for today is between 1.1 to 1.5 million. Down from 3 million and still the discrepancy in the findings is at around 35%.
And we are talking here about just one camp.

Back to giving advice.
I'm much obliged to you for showing me where to improve.
Now my advice for you: before you tell people what to do, make sure you you have done your homework by grasping at least the essentials of the discussed matter so that you know what you are talking about.

5.2 you say? I've never seen that figure tbh. (at least not in any ' officially approved' source).
Good, good. It means that we are going in the right direction. <smiley_face>

You made no such argument in that post. You gave a snippy answer and posted a bunch of emoticons. You know, your usual modus operandi.

That almost resembles an answer, albeit in a Skybirdian round-about way. You still didn't say what you thought it was, but it looks like it is a close as we are going to get.

See above. Essentials indeed.

When you talk about the 3 million figure it's also important to say the source and the time of this claim. Much new information was gained after historians finally had access to the Soviet archives, not before the early 90s. This is why the number went down. Many other non-Holocaust related numbers were also corrected.
This must be funny for people who spew the bull about how Jews control the historic research (or any and all media), that those numbers were relatively quickly accepted by historians. However this is what science is about: new sources, new insights.

The US Holocaust museum writes those numbers
(source:http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10005189)

Regarding the "Straight to the gas": The article above also says that about approximately 320000 of 420000 Hungarian Jews were send directly into the chambers. Why is this an idiotic claim?
The people were registered when the trains took off. The Reichsbahn even got money from the SS for the tranportation (http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/trains.html).
The Selektion happpened at the ramp, when the trains arrived, a well-documented fact. For the people who died during the transport and for those who were of no use (=instant death sentence) there was no bureaucratic necessity to register them on the prisoner list. Why should they, they needed no resources like space in the barracks, food, clothing, etc. So in the cold world of bureaucracy they never arrived in the camps as prisoners.

the argument was that we have been fed with propaganda numbers but you failed to see it. Especially when you act according to your modus operandi: read one post, post irrelevant response, being redirected to another post, post another irrelevant response. Read the whole or better don't because it seems like you have come here just to sniff out some imagined problems in my posts. Didn't get my point? I don't care...

I will take that for a compliment.


agreed. That's what I meant. But I've seen posts (including axisforums) in which people argued that the 'final' number of victims should be higher because of that 'straight to gas' transports. That's is what I called idiocy, not the fact that they existed as such.

Back to archives. In 20 years or even less we gonna hear about 4 million and no one will be surprised.

As I hope you can read for yourself, you said nothing of the sort in your post. Your statement rang of an arrogant belief that you and you alone knew what the numbers were, hence the line of questioning from Jim, Dowly and myself. If you had stated clearly in the first place, you wouldn't have three different people chasing you around to try and get you to clarify your remarks, no? Getting all butthurt over it won't change anything. Being needlessly rude to Cybermat47 didn't help either. Just say what you mean and mean what you say. Try to do it in a respectful manner too. We could have avoided all of this.

Here endeth the lesson.

One does not have to believe in that propaganda. :O:

Not unless someone can discredit the data the current estimates are based on and come up with a more creditable estimate.

So it is 4m....how cool.

How cool...people counted in the millions, they had a face and a soul.

MH knows this. He likely had relatives that perished in the Holocaust.

OK! Thanks for info.

Extremely sad if that is in fact the case :huh:

Welcome to a historian's work.

I'm just saying that when you read enough, you get used to all the bad things you learn about. You don't need to forget nor ignore, but you need to get used to it. There is no way you can keep wallowing on it if you ever want to finish your job. Your tears are not going to bring anyone back or make you a better person. The best you can do is to treat them with the respect they deserve. And not only them, but the perpetrators as well. Your job is not to demonize them any more than they themselves deserve: a trap many hobby historians fall into, painting the world happily black and white.

And for the record, I despise the books that do nothing but present an atrocity after atrocity. That might appeal to someone's inner sadists or their need for social pornography, but I get to see those enough in the original documents that these books get written about in the first place.

they ain't that stupid. :)
article 55 of the 18.12.1998 act:
-who questions genocide in public and against facts (...)
is liable to a fine or up to 3 years in prison (I know that the translation sucks but I don't have enough time to find the proper law terminology, but i hope u get the idea).

Would you be more satisfied if the figure was bigger than 6 million? :doh: