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-   -   Saved by shallow water (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=194823)

Armistead 05-01-12 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCt (Post 1878472)
What would be the minimum distance to shoot? Whenever I wait too long to shoot, like under 1000 yards or so, it always seem like my torpedoes pass underneath without detonating. That's why I shoot at 3000. that way I have a second chance to shoot again or turn and fire a cutie before diving.
That shouldn't be a problem, I make many shots in the 600-1000 yard range, just early war I set them 10ft above keel depth...somethings not making sense here.

Main thing is to stay narrow towards the nearest DD, if you stay broadsides to one, your gonna get found out if within a few thousand yards.

bill clarke 05-02-12 02:28 AM
Great thread.

Can the escorts pick you up on the bottom ?, and could they historically ?

I'm in the early part of the war Dec 41, I've got MK 14's but I notice that there are Steam torps available too., any advantage using them ?

And when do the "cuties" become available ? and where is Travellers mod ?, had a look for it but no luck.

Krauter 05-02-12 02:53 AM
Wasn't sitting on the bottom bad for submarines, since the drains to their ballast tanks were on the bottom of the hull, and could thus get clogged with mud and debris? Or was that only for modern submarines?

MarkCt 05-02-12 06:13 PM
Given a choice, I wouldn't sit on the bottom. In my case I had to because I had heavy flooding plus the Formossa Stright is shallow enough in spots to avoid crush depth. I would rather keep moving that way I have some type of control. The last thing you want is to get caught on the bottom and a DD drops a string of 12 depth charges on you and you have no where to go.

I told you there are some that don't like using cuties. In my four rear tubes I always keep two. When they become available try a couple.

TorpX 05-03-12 01:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill clarke (Post 1878519)
Great thread.

Can the escorts pick you up on the bottom ?, and could they historically ?
They can and they could.
I'm in the early part of the war Dec 41, I've got MK 14's but I notice that there are Steam torps available too., any advantage using them ?
Mk 14's are steam torpedos. They were really the standard in most navies. The electric were a kind of infatuation; the advantage being that they were "trackless". The problem is that they were also slow, and often less reliable.
I should add the "steam" term comes from the fact that they worked by having fuel, air and water injected into a combustion chamber and the process created carbon dioxide, steam and nitrogen (left over from the air). The steam would condense, but the nitrogen would create bubbles, and leave a track.

commandosolo2009 05-03-12 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCt (Post 1877681)
Patrolling in the Formossa Straight, I came upon a TF of a BB, a couple cruisers and about 5 destroyers. After getting a hit on the BB and sinking two destroyers with "cuties" I got hit with a string of DC's. One compartment was flooded and one was partial. I had 58% hull damage with bulkhead damage, fuel leak and injured crew. With the flooding I started to slowly sink. Depth was just under 300 so I decided to just sit on the bottom and go quiet to make repairs. It took awhile but the destroyers finally gave up and all repairs were made which allowed me to return to base with 4 KIA's.

So it just goes to show that sometimes shallow water can be your best friend.
That happened to me before, during a port raid in Rabaul. Only the Akizuki on the very shallows kept charging me, so I bottomed her, with repairs in motion, and tubes loading... there was that pocket of deep between the chains were I completed repairs and PD'd to sink the bastard.

Sailor Steve 05-03-12 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krauter (Post 1878524)
Wasn't sitting on the bottom bad for submarines, since the drains to their ballast tanks were on the bottom of the hull, and could thus get clogged with mud and debris? Or was that only for modern submarines?
Apparently not, because they did it many times. Or maybe they took the risk because it was the only choice at the time. I don't know anything about modern subs.

Daniel Prates 05-03-12 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Steve (Post 1879179)
Apparently not, because they did it many times. Or maybe they took the risk because it was the only choice at the time. I don't know anything about modern subs.
I should imagine that, due to size and weight, landing a Los Angeles sub in the bottom of the ocean is close to an impossible thing. Fleetboats, being much smaller, are another matter.

TorpX 05-04-12 01:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Prates (Post 1879184)
I should imagine that, due to size and weight, landing a Los Angeles sub in the bottom of the ocean is close to an impossible thing. Fleetboats, being much smaller, are another matter.
I don't know that much about modern subs, but I doubt there would be a temptation for them to resort to such tactics. They are much faster, the batteries don't run down, they have more effective weapons, so why would they allow themselves to be caught in shallow water?





The case I read, where a US sub bottomed out and thereby evaded destruction, occured after they had already sustained damage, and were leaking oil. They realized the oil was seeping up and the DD's could see it. The critical detail that saved them was that the currents were carrying the oil away, so the enemy ships dropped DC's on the wrong spot. The Captain wisely ordered flood negative and waited quietly, until the enemy went away.


Ordinarily, the enemy ships could still ping you and locate you, even if your not making noise, and if you aren't moving, you would be easier to hit.

Sailor Steve 05-04-12 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorpX (Post 1879401)
Ordinarily, the enemy ships could still ping you and locate you, even if your not making noise, and if you aren't moving, you would be easier to hit.
Not necessarily. First, the bottom is rarely smooth, and irregularities cause sonar to reflect in random directions, helping to hide the sub. Second, the sand helps to absorb the force of the blast. I'm not saying it's perfect, as one close hit can end it all, and we have no record of the subs it didn't work for, but it was done and sometimes done very well. Re-read my links about S-38.

MarkCt 05-04-12 10:43 AM
Could sonar tell the difference between a sub on the bottom and a coral reef?

PacificWolf 05-04-12 11:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCt (Post 1879547)
Could sonar tell the difference between a sub on the bottom and a coral reef?
I believe not! I tried this by myself and I almost die! Im talking about vanilla TMO and RFB.

les green01 05-04-12 12:12 PM
in the book blind man bluff one of the us subs i think it was the sea wolf was doing a cable tap in one of the russian seas in the early 80's and had divers out when a storm hit and to save the drivers the capt order her it to bottom and mud and muck was so bad in the boat that they almost didnt raise back up and was afraid the muck and stuff was going to shut the reactors down dont have the book with me right now

Sailor Steve 05-04-12 12:38 PM
Dynamix put that very thing into Aces Of The Deep. Bottoming the boat would sometimes save you, but you could also get stuck. I once lost a career because I couldn't break free and the crew suffocated.

MarkCt 05-04-12 02:15 PM
Wow that's got to suck. All that sweat and effort into a career only to have it end my mud. It's not even a "glorious" death where you go out fighting.

Daniel Prates 05-04-12 02:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorpX (Post 1879401)
I don't know that much about modern subs, but I doubt there would be a temptation for them to resort to such tactics. They are much faster, the batteries don't run down, they have more effective weapons, so why would they allow themselves to be caught in shallow water?
That is not the point, I too can't think of any reason why a contemporary sub skipper would even dream about doing so. I was just pointing out, since someone else asked, that IMO it is not possible to land a large modern sub in the bottom.

Echo76 05-04-12 04:17 PM
A bit OT but I read a little story about a finnish sub that ran aground while evading russian patrol boats because they had too much ballast. When they released some of the ballast, the surfacing gases and oil made the hunters to believe that the sub had sunk.

Shortly after, the sub ran aground again into an underwater elevation in the bottom and damaged its diving planes. By that time the crew was falling unconscious and became delirious because of the co2 rising too high, like the cook falling with a coffee mug in his hand and when the chief of the watch was told to start the pumps to get the boat on surface, the chief instead started to explain the operating principles of the pump.

Must have been a miracle to get the sub up again but they made it. And got hunted again :D

TorpX 05-05-12 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Steve (Post 1879499)
Not necessarily. First, the bottom is rarely smooth, and irregularities cause sonar to reflect in random directions, helping to hide the sub. Second, the sand helps to absorb the force of the blast. I'm not saying it's perfect, as one close hit can end it all, and we have no record of the subs it didn't work for, but it was done and sometimes done very well. Re-read my links about S-38.
I know of the S-38. I don't dispute that this tactic was done on occasion, but I think it was unusual. The incidents with the S-38 happened early in the war, when IJN ASW tactics were of a lower standard. I think most sub crews disliked (or even dreaded) shallow water encounters with DD's and ASW ships.


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