Thanks for clarifying that. Some things just go over my head. :salute:


Yeah, that was my slip-up. :-?

From someone on the ground over there those books were burned because they were being used as "Kites" to pass extremist messages written between the lines between captured Taliban and other insurgents.

They just weren't disposed of very discretely.

U.S soldiers burned Koran. We know this episode.

But which are the consequences ?

-------------------------

For Muslims, these soldiers were NATURALLY Christians.

For Muslims, burning Koran is considered as a crime.

For Muslims, this was NATURALLY a Christian crime.

For Muslims, this Christian crime was NATURALLY premeditated.

For Muslims, this premeditated Christian crime was NATURALLY intended as a sacrilege.

For Muslims, punishing all Christians through the world for this sacrilege is NATURAL and OBLIGATORY.

Conclusion : for Muslims, punishing near Christians (even in tombs) is also NATURAL.


Good remark ... and a small precision : some US soldiers burned religious books in Afghanistan. Yes, this was not really intelligent, but it was only about paper. And I think that there is a doubt about the will to make a sacrilege.

But when Muslims are starting to burn some Christian things, they burn also paper (the Bible) ... and the church ... and the Catholic school beside ... and the priest ... and the Christian people inside (I mean : women, men, children ...).

In this case, is there here a doubt about the Muslim will to make a sacrilege ?

Another remark : maybe Western European people made the same terrible things 10 centuries ago. Sorry ! But we are speaking about TODAY (2011/2012 facts), not about a far past.

On this particular point, ask the Copts in Egypt : http://www.voiceofthecopts.org/

Last remark : why Western European people fighted Islam 10 centuries ago ? Because Muslims prevented Christians to go in Jerusalem for their pilgrimage or reduced them to slavery. What could happen if now Christians prevented Muslims to go in Mecca for their pilgrimage ? No doubt : the Third World War ...

Honestly things like this only make me feel that organized religion is bad for humanity not just a particular religion.Some Christians and Muslims have been fighting each other for many generations both sides did nasty things to the other during the crusades.Both sides have done nasty things to the other during the Lebanon Wars.Some Hindus and Muslims wish to wipe each other out on the Indian subcontinent.Some Jews and Muslims have be killing the other for many generations as well with both sides being guilty of nasty acts.
This fact leads me to feel that by and large organized religion is to blame.Almost every religion claims that it is right and all others are wrong and that makes it very easy first to use fear of damn nation to control people and it makes it very easy to make non believers as something less than human.

You need to read up a little more on the Crusades as well _dgn_ it is a great example of how organized religion is bad for all humanity.

With both the Libyans and the Afghans, one has to recognize that there a contingent who is looking for an excuse, any excuse to demonstrate. If on one had burned Qur'ans they would have found some other excuse to be offended.

All we did was make it a bit more convenient.

That was the entire point I was making people though out history have used one religion or another as a reason to kill,maim,and act stupid.

You are just blinding your self to think that only people from a certain region or a certain religion are susceptible when it is know that
people all over the world use religion as their reasoning to do stupid things.

Not every Libyan or Afghan has the same views that is like saying all Americans agree with the Tea Partiers or the Occupy Wall Street protectors.

Islam is what is defined as such by Quran, an dpratcice supported by sharia which is nimpossible to be separated from the Quranic tradition. there is no true Islam without Sharia.

The Quran teaches a fundamentalist ideology. Its purpose was and is conquest, and enforcing own military and social power by enforced unity. Of the masses. It bases on supremacist concepts, racism, explicit hate on Jews, and is not shy to waste own life to help the cause of Islam. Muhammad at one part of the Quran mocked his warriors when before a battle they got doubts on whether it was right that they try to kill those they were about to attack. He promised them paradise when they said they had doubts on whether they want to sacrifice thei9r own life in the effort to kill enemies.

Islam is no friendly, humane, tolerant ideology.

But it is perfectly possible for people to deceive themselves over the grim nature of Islam. Like not all "Christians" that once a year flock into the churches on christmas are really christian, but just want to get their yearly dose of sentimental feelings and childhood memories, Muslims can ignore all they do not want to be known about islam'S inner implication, but still claim to be "Muslim". But they are not.

Islamic ideology is extremely unlikely to be altered by exposing it to Wetsern connsumarism and way of life. Just weeks ago a federal study of the German govenrment had to conclude ONCE AGAIN that second and third generations in Muslim immigrant families radicalise massively and are more orthdoox than their parents and grandparents who came here 50 years ago. Another report at the same time two or three weeks agi I think showed that radical sects - in fact they are not radical at all but just truly islamic sects - massively blossom in Germany, and that the young move to them in masses. "Radical" hate preachers find growing and thnakful audiences here. In fact, thy are just Islamic. Hate is part of islam. In Western thinking it is about demonising the enemy. And To Isdlam everything and everyone not being Islamic is "enemy".

Westerns do not want to listen to this. It rules out their concepts of multi-culti and tolerance could every work the way Westerners want it. But these concepts only work to our own fall, with Islam benefitting from that. Ignorrance is a bad advisor. And we start to feel it. In Germany, in shrinking intervals more and more second-row politicians claim they want to implement shariah in German law code. But German judges time and again already act on the basis of shariah las and respect for this foreign culture -sometimes violating german law that way. Islamic "mediators" already now interfere with police investigations.Witnesses fall silent in fear, families force embers to not cooperate, crimes get covered and hidden, girl trading and abuse of females are on the rise, with the number of police success declining. Great thing, this Shariah mediation. It is becasue Shariah in prinicple is not interested in the question of who is guilty and who is victim. shariah focusses on mediating an outcome that allows the patriarchs to save their face and to kedep the lid on the pressure cooker so that nothing could disturb the social "freedom". And as you can imagine, women and girls come last in this hierarchy of priorities. As already the Quran says, the woman's confession is worth only half of that cofnession of a male, and its moral duty is to obey and to be submissive.

So, Steelhead, it may or may not be true that Muslims have different levbels of sympoathy for the Quranic teaching. But that does not chnage the Quanic teaching itself, nor does it make a big difference in reality. In the West, muslim parallel socieities are masiovely dominated by the true Muslims (you probably would call them "radical" Muslims). And the vast majority of Muslims, whether they be "moderate" or "radical" themselves, do not stop them, give them hiding and shaeter, and cimplain about us when we go after the "rqadicals" and call it rcism and discrminiation and insist we - non-believer sof their faith - nevertheless have to pay full respect to their customs and traditions even if mosques get used for conspiratory meetings, recruiting of cannon fodder for terrorism, and "radical" propaganda.

do not judge islam by what this or that Musolim stells you aboitu it. judge it by the Quran, Sharia practicing, and world history. Objective self-reflection and a critical anaylsis of itself is not what Islam is shining at. Islamic educations aims at right preventing this. ;) It is no education for learning how to independently using your brain on these issues, but it is about uncritically copying the Quran's dogma.

And that is where Sky runs into his usual problem of brainfreeze, according to him there is only one version of sharia, and that is the fairly modern wahhibi concept of it....which obviously is a view which is clearly self contradictory if you have a functioning mind:doh:

That sums it up...Muslims are pain in the back....but not all of them are bad.:haha:

Focus at the full part of the glass and don't piss the sensitive and very vocal rest...that's the basic in this political gymnastics.
Not because Islam is OK and welcomed...it is because it strong and dangerous or pain in a back when crossed.
Lets be smart and apologise....better than get a kicks in the balls right?:haha:

I read a comment in another forum which goes like this:
"If we would have the same kind of love for fellow humans that we have for objects, we would be some steps futher."

Especially after reading about the suicide attack at the Jalalabad airfield today: yes, it makes perfect sense to blow up 9 fellow muslim civlilians because someone "disrespected" a book... :damn:

A professor of Islamic studies explained it like this:
(source:http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Globa...am-s-holy-book)

This is the mindset I can't get. Well, no matter who this Jesus guy was, son of god or an human being with some thoughts that were revolutionary for its time: he was crucified, but his ideas survived.
Jesus, same as the quran, stands for some ideas. No matter if you burn people or symbols who represent these ideas - the ideas are still there.
If you truly believe into those ideas, or a faith, an ideology or something similar, if you have true convictions it doesn't matter what happens, you still believe as ideas can't be burned or crucified.
Maybe this is the "sin" of what many followers are afraid of: to have doubts about their own faith; the crutch which allows them to paint the world in black and white. What if the quran was only a book, written in the desert by other humans? What if the Earth still keeps on rotating, no matter if you burn one, none or all qurans?

I know there are many people on here with a faith, this is not to put you down, whatever gets you through your life is fine.
I have a problem with people who think like drones, unable to reflect their own mind and actions, unable to see beyond their pre-fab world.


Although I presume that you mean "if one would not had burned", I think you exactly nailed it.

In all fairness the fight in Africa was to defend/ attack European colonial interests.

Not saying it is right or that I condone it. Just saying the reasons were not noble in the first place.

When the French start peeing on allied graves, then I will get upset. Our cause was at least noble there.

For the British, it was about logistic supply lines in the mediterranean (Suez, Gibralatar) and the option to interrupt them (Germany) , and oil supply lines to the South-East ME. Germany for the main assisted the Italians who tried to deny the Brits their strategic interst. For Britain , the battole wasmore important, probably, since the UK was in danger to get strangled in the North Alantic, and had to defend the Germans in the air battle for Britain, with a German invasion considered to be a realistic threat for some time.

All religions ? The French philosopher Ernest Renan made a difference between the 3 monotheist religions (Judaism, Christianism and Islam) and the other ones.
For him, these 3 religions are hard, dogmatic and they regard themself as universal. But in fact, they were worked by their hard environment : desert ! The hot, vacuum, nude and infinite desert. A real hell on the Earth ...

Which books do you recommend ?

Lets not forget the Germans wanted to push out of Africa, cross Iraq and invade Iran/President Day Azerbaijan to capture the oil fields. The Germans even sent Gebirgsjager units to the African front in anticipation of this. Why don't the people from the region celebrate this fact? Lets look at some of the Axis's allies in the region such as al-Husseini, a guy who recruited Muslims for the SS. Africa and the Middle East were on "Our Side" for WWII at the point of a rifle, if it wasn't for 'western colonial interests' the list of Nazi allied countries would have gotten a lot longer.

The 60 years of poor relations that followed the Second World War likely play a large role in why the West is not celebrated.

When I was there, I got repeatedly celebrated (as a German) for my ancestors having killed so wonderfully many Jews. I should be very proud of our history, they said.

No joke, they really did. Not always, but far too often. Same in Iran, of course, and Turkey. From the metropoles to the urban areas.

Lovely.

Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini ? The Palestinian Arab nationalist, who was Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ?
He is sometimes given as Yasser Arafat's grand-uncle, but it isn't certain.

I was not trying to say the allies had no business there, just that the colonial map in Africa had alot of Euro (allied and Axis) colors on it.

And that the fight there had nothing to do with the actual citizens of the countries, but of politics elsewheres.

I do not expect allegiance from them honestly.

Unlike say the Normandy invasion, or Market Garden (failed), that served to liberate a country, and not preserve imperialistic ties.

Sure.. you force the colonial dirty politics on some ME couturiers that made them filthy reach off western money.
You fought cold war and terrorism in ME.
You support popular dictators who become unpopular, you forced democracy you support Zionists colonialism.
You make Muslim kill Muslim by not supporting nobody.

They sell to you ,get reach and preach to hate you and your corrupted western open culture...and you are responsible for all the wrong doing.
Actually they have every reason to hate themselves but its much easier and productive to blame others.

Its some western superiority complex which causes people to blame themselves for all the wrongs that Arabs mostly do to themselves.
Its all because of western politics because they are too dumb to be so stupid or crafty...whatever you call it.

That's a strawman argument; I assigned no blame. The salient issue is that relations are not good between the western powers and the arabic states, and this is the reason that they don't like us and don't want to celebrate us.