SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

SUBSIM Radio Room Forums (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/index.php)

- General Topics (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=175)

- - We got scared (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=191915)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sammi79 (Post 1828727)

Takeda,

First let me assure you of my personal respect for you, as a balanced and reasonable moderator here, I mean no offense.

Yes I think Einstein was scared. After all he was human, with all the weakness that entails. Someone who was not scared under those circumstances would be a fool at the very least, or somehow above said weakness, no?

The problem I have with your first post is this; the study of science has only led to more death and misery (your words) Now please correct me if I have mistaken your meaning, but this seems to me to be taking the effect, and linking causality to the tool, rather than the one who wields it. To analogize with the 2001 scene, it is like blaming the bone being grasped by the ape, for the murder that is done later with it. To elaborate, the ape has an agenda, to compete for resource, to survive. This is what quickly leads him to the realization that the bone tool can aid him in his endeavor. I assert that Einstein had no comparable agenda in 1905 (I think?) when he first penned his famous equation, and realized the incredible amount of energy that is locked away in all matter. He cannot be held responsible for the inferior agendas of others who took one of his greatest works and created an abhorrent weapon, and nor can his curiosity and studies that brought him to his discovery. The climate of fear that compelled him to lend his work to the military was certainly not of his making after all, he was acutely aware of the vast energies that might now threaten the allies. I firmly disagree with your notion that all science is rooted in conflict, we are not measuring the speed of neutrinos with the aim to build a weapon, and we are not searching for a force carrying gravity particle to enable us take resource from our enemies. We are uncovering reality layer by layer, because we are curious.

I do not intend to preach to you about the benefits of science, of which you are doubtless aware as you read this reply on your screen, though in your statement you use the word 'only' which I assume is simply a slightly careless use of words, as you later state 'I have no issue with the role that religion has played in mankind's misery' now I am sure this is not quite your meaning, but I do sir. Very much so and on a personal level. But my intent is not to preach to you of the harm that has been done, is still being done in the name of 'religion' either, I am happy to disagree. I lay none of this at your feet, like I said, honestly, you have my respect. As you say, it is wrong to place all humanities faults on religion, but you are equally wrong to place them on the study of science.

Regards, Sam.

First, please don't be put off by the moderator avatar. We're just having a conversation here.

I agree that my statement was sweeping. However, was this any less so than was done in by the author of the video? I simply substituted 'science' for 'religion'.

What we are really talking about is the purity of both natural law and spirituality and contrasting them with man's constructs of science and religion. Take, for example, metallurgy. The creation of alloys itself is not evil, and the application of these natural laws has no doubt benefitted manking. However, it should be noted that nearly all of these developments came as a result of powerful men seeking to create better weapoons. As such, science becomes a front for the lust for power; the human drive for supremacy at the expense of the other. It is an attempt to save face by doing something in the 'name of science' rather than doing something to enforce or preserve one's own power.

Man behaves identically in matters of religion. While the principles in sprituality, and even in religious theology are not evil, man uses his religion as a mask for his drive for supremacy. The Crusades were hailed as a great religious cause, but the true reason was blatently political. The authorities of the Church were looking to expand their powers and needed a more stable Europe in order to do so. However, convincing a continent of bloodthirsty rulers and despotic local warlords to put their swords down was an impossibility. The Muslims may have very well been on the other side of the world by 11th Century standards, but they were an enemy against which this rogue's gallery could unite against. And so, it is far more convenient to claim the matter as religious than telling people the real reason. Like science it becomes the foil for the powerful and as in science, religion becomes a victim of the real problem--humanity and it's nature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen (Post 1828735)

However, it should be noted that nearly all of these developments came as a result of powerful men seeking to create better weapoons.

Hermann Oberth wanted the rocket to be used for space exploration, not for war.

The Wright Brothers expected their invention to allow nations to observe each other with impunity making war imposable.

Simon Lake wanted to use his invention for exploring the sea floor and tap its resources.

Joseph Glidden's invention was for cattle ranchers, not concentration camps and trenches.

Fritz Haber originally intended his chemical process to be used to make fertilizer and insecticide.

Benjamin Holt's invention was for agricultural tractors not tanks.

:hmmm:

He did say nearly... :O:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike (Post 1828755)

And yet, each of those inventions have been weaponized and used to create untold volumes of misery. Each of these has been used in the exploitation of others. It is identical to the 'weaponization' of religion. In that sense both science and religion become tools for the powerful. And once again it comes down to the fact that the problem is humanity itself. After all Jesus, intended that his words be used as a vehicle for peace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike (Post 1828755)

Te road to hell is paved with good intentions ;)

The good old times
http://www.theresilientearth.com/fil...mitive_man.jpg

So its all about greed domination?
No curiosity or ways to understand universe or better and more convenient life.
You really like to depress yourselfs.
Not saying that greed and war is not the factor that sometimes speeds up the process for good and the bad.

I should say that no advancement in modern physics have nothing to do with war or greed (maybe some fame)therefore Einstein well deserves his place in history of enlightened.
The A bomb is a by product but never was the objective.

Takeda,

I did not express my respect because you are a moderator, it is merely a thin gauge of your character, I have been around for a while (before my join date) and followed many threads, and to me you seem reasonable and have fairly balanced views. If I thought otherwise, I would be just as quick to say so, moderator or no. (though I do think that to be a moderator here @SubSim says only good things about ones character :up:) Your agreement with the general sweep of your first statement reinforces my opinion on this. I just wanted to assure you I am not attacking you or your beliefs in any way. This world takes all sorts, and it would be mighty boring otherwise.

It seemed to me that you felt the author of the video was attacking religion or religious beliefs, and you responded with a reproach. I assert he was not, he lays all the fault with fear, like the title, which I agree is yet another generalizing over-simplification. My interpretation of his message is different, however. What the author is saying is that religion has its root in fear of the unknown. That the forces governing life and death and unexplainable natural phenomena seemed to the newly evolved mind to have a will of their own, and power beyond understanding. Science or the study of natural reality, has its root in curiosity, and the overcoming of fear.

The reason that in the modern age, they appear to be in conflict is this; science takes piece by piece the unknown and uncovers the reality of it. In doing so it eliminates the fear of the unknown, by making it known. As more and more reality is uncovered by scientific study, the scriptures and doctrines are being forced to evolve (though they resist strongly and have not done so nearly enough IMHO) to exclude the findings of science. Many Christians accept that the creation myth in genesis is false in view of our newly acquired knowledge of evolution, for example. The intent of science has never been to compete with religion, it just so happens the side effect of sceptical analysis is - the incremental discreditation of religions that fail or refuse to evolve alongside it.

At the very least, science can be used to fight against its own abuse. What do the scriptures say about global warming, for instance? Anyway for me it is irrelevant, in that it is painfully clear that greed is our nemesis, and is also as Oberon points out is as fundamental to our nature as are fear and curiosity. But fear doesn't help, and science is helping to fix that.

Regards, Sam

A question.

I have a feeling from reading above posts that there is an optimistic view that science will give us the answers to our problems and lead us into a bright future. We can only hope this is true. Sadly though, as listed above, are some of sciences' good intentions gone wrong. I do not blame science and agree that man's dark side is certainly to blame for these misadventures. That being said neither man nor science is able to correct them. We still have atomic and chemical weapons and we still burn fossil fuel. Man is still as cruel and murderous as his history reveals. Given the state of our world, increasing population, dwindling resources, corporate greed, and fundamentalist rhetoric from all sides, we should pause and consider. Will the next great scientific achievement be another one of these 'mistakes'? Will it be used as intended or corrupted? Will that mistake be as irreversible as the others?

I think it would be foolish to say it can not happen. I'm very hopeful that it will not. My question is, can any one assure me it won't?

Quote:

Originally Posted by u crank (Post 1829070)

Will the next great scientific achievement be another one of these 'mistakes'? Will it be used as intended or corrupted? Will that mistake be as irreversible as the others?

I think it would be foolish to say it can not happen. I'm very hopeful that it will not. My question is, can any one assure me it won't?

The way I see it is that sooner or later this cold and uncaring universe will wipe out this planet and all its inhabitants. It could be a comet hitting the Earth, a passing rogue black hole, large scale tectonic instability; who knows (but guaranteed Earth destruction in 7.5 billion years).

Science is the only thing that can save us (or at least some of us) from such a catastrophe.

So you can sit here and wait for the end or roll the dice and try to find a way out of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike (Post 1829201)

Science is the only thing that can save us (or at least some of us) from such a catastrophe.

So you can sit here and wait for the end or roll the dice and try to find a way out of it.

Or is it us that can save science?

It's a sort of backwards chicken-or-egg problem - in the end, it may well be that all that's left of us is the science and technology, and the whole purpose of human civilization might turn out to be building a bunch of really good robots to survive after us in the universe (or worse, pull a Skynet on us). But I guess that's the same old problem of mortality - just on a bigger scale. You can sit around and be depressed about how human you are and how you can't help but be weak, greedy and mortal, or you can just get off your butt do something with the life you still got left in you, imperfections, mistakes and stupidity be damned :up: Same for civilization as a whole.

Science can save us, yes, and it can destroy us just as easily as that comet. All it takes is one boundary pushed just a little too far and it'll swing back so fast and kick us in the backside so hard that we'll wish for a comet. We've been lucky so far, but after the singularity, perhaps one day we will have to move aside to make way for the better race that we create, the machine race. Perhaps we won't even make it that far, perhaps one day a scientist will create a nanite designed to consume its surroundings and reproduce, and for whatever reason it fails to shut itself off. Within a month or two the planet is grey and we are history.

Science is great, I love science and I look forward to a future with the technology that today we can only dream of, but we have got to be so careful that we don't sacrifice what makes us human in the pursuit of science.

@ 6:18 pfft! Big deal, on the planet I came from, we have 8 senses and can see through time, Earthlings still have a long way to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens (Post 1829236)

@ 6:18 pfft! Big deal, on the planet I came from, we have 8 senses and can see through time, Earthlings still have a long way to go.

In what star system might this planet be?

Why? Oh no reason...

:O:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike (Post 1829380)

In what star system might this planet be?

Why? Oh no reason...

:O:

Hah, just watched that episode last night. :DL

Think this is my 4th time watching the whole series over, gotta say it's probably
the best Stargate series. :yep: (not that there is any competition except for SG-1 :O:)

Jacob: Come on, Sam. It can't be any harder than blowing up a sun.
Sam: You know, you blow up one sun and suddenly everyone expects you to walk on water.
[Alien control panel lights up.]
Sam: Next step, parting the Red Sea!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike (Post 1829380)

In what star system might this planet be?

Why? Oh no reason...

:O:

Anyone else notice the irony of that video in a thread about the hope and promise of science?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen (Post 1829474)

Anyone else notice the irony of that video in a thread about the hope and promise of science?

Yea.

Other options have been suggested.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx...f6a3o1_500.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen (Post 1829474)

Anyone else notice the irony of that video in a thread about the hope and promise of science?

Just remember; there is only one spot at the top of the food chain, and technology implies belligerence.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3...theresnowa.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike (Post 1829494)

Just remember; there is only one spot at the top of the food chain, and technology implies belligerence.

Very contrary to the video, which presents science as the harbinger of peace. Your vision of science sounds a whole lot like the author's vision of religion. Could it be that, in the end, they're not so different after all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen (Post 1829517)

Never said it had anything to do with science.

Science gives you the tools to keep you alive in a cold uncaring universe. A society's willingness to use them keeps it alive.

Religion? Well I guess you could try and pray away the barbarians at the city walls.