The bigger problem, just how much value did we get for all that debt.
Many studies show right at 40% of what's spent in some way lined the pockets of a very few. Another said studies and committees figuring out how to spend it wasted another 10%...Simply, bunch of lawyers became millionaires, war profit. As long as we have mostly lawyers running government, were screwed.

No doubt this nation will fall as a leading power in the next 20 years, if not less. Most agree another crisis could tumble down in a matter of years, creating levels of poverty that many would be back living like people did in the 1800's, without power and gardening for food.

Sense of urgency is needed to deal with this. Can't possibly expect economic growth to solve this.

I had a chat with as steam friend who claimed to be living in Texas but with altogether different timezone than Texas and a distinctly Singaporean accent though he claimed to be American Thai. Weird thing for an American he was pretty anti American. He said he was glad US dominance is over or going to be over soon.

I know US is not a saint but I'd prefer it much than China dominance.
I really hope this debt crisis can be dealt with. Reduced US influence is inevitable it seems but I don't think you can really ignore it still in the future provided US is well run.

Europe is not exactly in pretty picture as well and Japan may be facing its biggest crisis thanks to the latest Earthquake and nuclear crisis.
The only thing that still looks good is China. It;s worrisome to me. You can't expect pretty things from a government who persecutes their own citizens without second thoughts. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against China people but people in China don't run their government and have no say in it whatsoever. Govt with access to resources draws the kind of people they want or prefer so it becomes a skewed representative or distorted face of the Chinese people in general.

Japan is the biggest in the world. I believe that Germany is the biggest in Europe.

I hear here in Australia that they are worried about the level of debt Australia has accrued, but as a % it's still one of the smallest around in the developed world and is managed reasonably well.

Guess we are lucky to a degree. Many retailers are screaming that people aren't buying from them any more, instead shopping on line or going overseas on trips to buy goods. But the reserve bank doesn't care, people are saving again, credit card growth has almost halted and people are living within their means. Even with low unemployment and good wage growth, people are paying off debts and avoiding accruing new ones.

Yes, this seems to be the sad truth.
I think governments in general will be just as abusive, corrupt, and arrogant as they are allowed to be.

I consider the problem to be even worse than this. If one pays too much for a house or a tractor you may suffer a economic setback, but this will be temporary. And you do benefit from what you have worked for. If you spend a large sum of money gambling and using heroin, you not only have nothing positive to show for it, but have undermined your well being in the long-term.

The U.S. has actually spent huge sums (and incurred enormous debts), in making a shockingly large segment of our population dependant on gov't largess. Now we can neither continue these programs nor readily dismantle them. The worst part of this is that all of it was self-inflicted and completely unnecessary.

That's our government. One only need to study history, government would rather throw crumbs through social programs than solve problems when they arise. Also, many of these programs control people, their lives and vote.

Not to pick on a race, but take what we did to black people, for years racism in one form or the other kept them in poverty. There was a time for real education, legal rights, etc., that would've been a better change. I'm talking in the 30's. These rights were ignored. Those in power thought it better to throw crumbs than give them any power or wealth. Even today only a few percent of black have any generational wealth as whites have passed on for hundreds of years. Instead of the tools and fair laws that were needed, many social programs were created. These often trap people, but if you're starving, you'll take the crumbs.

We did the same thing with health care. We turned it into a system of mass profits for corporations and basically let big insurance create closet
monopolies. Between insurance and pharma, Doctor's now have to treat totally different than what they once did. So, the government provides medicaid/care, etc..if you qualify, but it can't keep up and unsubstainable and in the next 20 years millions of americans will suffer and die due to illness, many do today.

Government will never do the right thing at the right time. They sell out. Even when things crumble, they sell out.

The GOP is creating a two class system under the guise of capitalism, it's sending this nation into wholesale poverty. The Dems being more liberal towards those in poverty want the rich to pay for the basic needs. I'd say they have the higher moral ground, but both routes will doom this nation.

First off I feel the alarm bells have been ringing for sometime. Its like the fire alarm going off in your burning house but you hitting the snooze button on your alarm clock cause your just to comfortable to get up and deal with the impending doom.

One scenario that could happen is a page out of uncle Adolph's playbook.

Switching the US monetary system away from gold and silver to production and introducing a new currency worth nothing outside of our own borders. And just like Adolph watch the world go nuts! Sure America would instantly find itself on a war footing but it stave's off our immediate collapse and if we win the next big one we might be in a whole new position.

Just a thought.

No such thing. As long as we produce goods for export or buy imported goods, there will be a market for American currency.

Say you're a French wine importer. You sell your French wine to American consumers. Since you're in France, you need to be paid in Euros. The American importer sells his dollars for Euros and pays you.

You're an American pharmaceutical manufacturer. You sell your drugs to Thailand. The Thais sell their Baht and buy dollars to settle their accounts with you.

As you can see, any sort of international trade is going to require currency exchange. To shut down all foreign trade would cripple American business, and you'd see a mass exodus from this country. The idea just doesn't work.

QFT. Our economy is worth nothing without interchangeable global currency as a medium. Your idea is like trying to set gas prices with keepsakes that have nothing but sentimental value. We're a powerful economy, to be sure, even a commanding one, but we can't arbitrarily change the currency system on everyone and expect them to oblige us. It just doesn't work that way.

There must always be a perceived equal exchange for economics to work. You can't just arbitrarily change the perception.

too much and you can't blame one party over the other as both are guilty a politician is like a lawyer or a insurance company you know you going get a screwing anyway you go.just like us bailing out the auto's out and wall street when it comes to the auto's they basic price theirselfs out 50k to 60k for a regular pickup,then when the mortage going on wallstreet people said people should pay theirs bills and they wouldnt be losing their homes really who you think just bail your worthless asses out.

I'm starting to think our debt is the end result of years of deregulation and allowing those in positions of influence to run riot in the name of pure, unbridaled capitalism. Granted, too much regulation is a bad thing, buisness and industry will leave, but too little is equally as bad because we are human.

The one thing you can count on from humanity, regardless of whatever system is adopted by a society, is greed and self interest. Our national debt, is a result of this. The politicians, Lobbyists, and Wall street are responsible. Each has been playing the system for the loopholes, each trying to get a larger chunk of the pie, each out only for themselves. They've all been running riot, and we the people are the ones who will be paying for it.

BTW, Capitalism is great, it is the best system, but it needs temperance. Pure unbridaled, unregulated capitalism, is a failure, and should be a dead concept. I can of 14,277,069,321,700 reasons why.

edit:
US debt. Some of that is war costs. So here's a gripe. If I can live within my means, why can't the F'ing government? I owe, a grand total of 200 dollars in gas on a credit card. That's my "debt" which will be paid at the end of the month. Buy now, pay later is bad. M'kay?

The National Debt is the accumulation of the Federal Budget Deficit. It is the result of Congress spending more than they make, and nothing else. I agree about regulation and deregulation, but I'm pretty sure the National Debt has zero to do with either regulation or capitalism.

Quoted for irrefutable truth. The national debt is exactly that, the debt of the nation, which is to say the national government. Private industry and citizens have nothing to do with it, save where they have bought national bonds. Private entities do not accumulate debt, at least not for long. They either profit or they go away or get bought or seized or restructured or any number of other means in which an entity can cease to exist. Government, not so much, obviously.

Certainly it is ! Where does this abstract government spend the money ?


A bit goes to the health system; with rising costs - companies have raised their costs for medicaments enormously.

Another (tiny) bit goes indeed to social welfare, what's wrong about that ?

Another tranche goes to schools and universities, which is a wise method to improve the nation overall.

Also most museums are paid by the government, or did you think some companies pay them ?

And the major part ? Military ! Those submarines cost money ! Also flattops, planes, maintenance, training, personnel.
And the governmenet pays the companies what they demand. The latter are not in for patriotism, they are getting paid for every rivet, or sonar system they build and install.
Playing the Sheriff all over the world also costs big money.
If it is the government which is to blame, a good part of that can be sought for with the arms and weapons lobbies. The government should not always listen to them ! As well the CIA threatens the politicians with horror scenarios, to get enough funds for their own work, and hardware. Who do you think paid "Operation paperclip", or "Gladio" ?

Greetings,
Catfish

P.S. if this sounds arrogant or what, i do not say nor believe that the german system (or any other) is any better. But we have to find a solution, if we want not too much taxes on one hand, but on the other be able to care for our own population, and additionally help (or bomb) other countries. Someone always has to pay.

My post was in direct response to Ducimus. Where or how it is spent is irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that neither private nor industrial debt is part of the National Debt, so deregulation and unbridled capitalism don't affect it directly. Bailouts do cross over, but it is still Congress choosing to spend money which they neither earn nor deserve, but either take or borrow. That borrowing part is what comprises the National Debt.

I'd agree with you except it is my belief that the government, or more specifically, the politicians that comprise the govertnment, are little more then puppets for corporate and special interests. That's how regulation and capitalism enter the picture. They are the ones who pull the strings. The wall street bailout, pretty much makes that irrefutable i would think.

I'm confused, or is that unsure, no thank Heaven, it's just bewildered.:sunny: