What I don't understand, if God's plan for man was the garden, what happened. God knows all beforehand, so knew Satan would fall, but created him. When he fell, why not destroy him then, place him on another planet, take away his power. What did God do, placed him on earth with all his power and where does he show up...in the garden with Adam and Eve..and then that tree.
The story goes Adam and Eve doomed all mankind, seems they were set up to me. If God's perfect plan was the garden, what does it say if mere man can mess it up. Seems if plan A fails, God goes to plan B, so can we ever trust a plan A?

I just say "I don't know." If God's plan was to doom the mass of us to hell to be tortured forever to have a few in heaven.....not what I would call love. If you go by what each religion says...whoever is wrong result in the mass of us burning alive. The fact is culture and human factors play the role on what most believe. If all the christians in the USA were born in Iran they would be muslims.

The flood, no one righteous was found but Noah and his kids. I imagine there were many other kids...were they that bad they needed drowning?

In the end, all sounds like something man made up.

Here's the problem, the fundamental fallacy of religion, neatly summed up by Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I'm not even sure if I like being termed a 'Legalized Killer'.
I was a Soldier that Eliminated Targets assigned to me.
I've never considered myself a 'Killer' in anyway.

As for 'God' thinking of us as Children?
That was what someone may have written.
It may be thier 'thoughts' on the subject.
God never wrote a single thing I've ever heard of.
So it's all suspect as I see it.

What happened? Man failed. Man succumbed to temptation. Adam failed, and with that Mankind was left to their own devices, to chose between right and wrong. Mankind is still failing. Look around you.Yes he allowed it, it was a test, not in the sense that you or i think, a 'playing games' sort of test, no, this was not in that sense.

Not at all, no setup here, Adam still had a choice, chose Apple, or chose to go without. No force was used to have Adam succumb to evil. None whatsoever, he chose, with his own free mind, which God had given him. So no setup.

It's not him that is dooming us to Hell, as you claim, it is us. He has nothing to do with what we chose, he has said as much, that he has given us free mind and spirit, to do as we please, to chose from right or wrong, to chose from killing one another, or to chose from loving one another.
Surely you cannot tell me that it's God's fault for the murder, the rape, the pilliging, the centuries of mankind killing oneanother off, etc etc.
Yes, denominations, i don't have much faith in them. Only to a certain extent, Human Nature actually supercedes your point here.

Man failed, then his design must've been flawed. He didn't fall until the most powrful angel was allowed to trick him, so we blame man. Sort of unfair one man falls and dooms everyone else.
That's like me killing someone and your kids go to the gas chamber for my sin.


Free will...saying choose me or I'll torture you forever. No man would choose hell, someone had to make it and throw us in there.

I could fall in love with a girl if I was a nut and put a gun to her head and told her to say she loves me or I'll pull the trigger...I'm sure she would say she loves me. That's what most of man does choosing salvation.

Hell, nothing but a tool created by man to control his fellow man with fear.
With the many religions, 1000's of denominations and even more doctrines how could man know what to believe even if he was sincere in the search.
So he could be sincere, yet still doomed if he wasnt able to wade through all the beliefs that have changed over and over depending on what culture was in power.

Most believe what they walk into and never question or simply born into it.

Flawed? Or not perfect? It's no secret that man wasn't created as perfect. So?
Thank God( no pun intended) that we weren't created perfect. We were created to be equal.

Of course we blame man, goes back to my original point i was making about the pureness of man. Or in a lot of cases, the lack of.

No, free will to chose between right and wrong, sure, it's not as clear-cut as that, or is it?
No man would chose hell, correct, but, a lot have haven't they? There's plenty of sinning going on in this world. And in relation to God saying indirectly or directly: I will torture you if you don't behave? Far from it, it's once again up to us to decide what we want out of life.

It's not Hell that i fear. Far from it.

Easy really, if you are a true believer. The Holy Bible.
Once again, it goes back to my earlier point(s) about Denominations, and why they are wrong.
Yes, many attempt to be sincere, or have a honest and genuine motif for adopting the Christian faith.
Once again, see my point before about Denominations.

You made this a statement, when it should have been a question. Still, I will answer it.

Lets look at this from a variety of perspectives. The world as we know it, is some one off of who knows how many trillions of chances? Pretty slim odds. Then you look at how things work - from the macro global environment to the micro, the inner workings of the atom in which science still fails to be able to offer more than just theories.

But lets move on... Lets look at history. Xtianity is based on the Bible, and it has over time proven to be a remarkably accurate historical text. The Elba texts, the "biblical legend) of the Hittite people later substantiated to have existed, the Assyrian king Sargon and his victory at Ashdod, or the existence of Belshazzar and his unique position to offer the third most powerful position in the kingdom. Don't forget the vast copper mines in Jordan that were discovered in 2008 and are now considered to be the Mines of Solomon, though prior to their discovery historians doubted their very existence..... Fairly convincing accuracy....

But lets say you need more. Look at the prophecy of the Bible. Israel was to be divided, then Israel and Judah would be scattered. Both happened. There are numerous other prophecies that have proven true, and some that have not yet - so the jury is out on those.

Still not enough? Well, not every person experiences the miracles and blessings of God the same way. You have been blessed, you have experienced miracles, no matter who you are. Yet too often we - in our pride that acts as blinders, fail to recognize them. I have been doubly blessed personally, because not only has the Lord blessed my life, He made sure I was in situations where I didn't have any choice but to see His hand in it. When you get to that point, you can't deny it. Sure, you still fight and always will, but you can't deny it deep down. Tell the world it wasn't a miracle, but you know in your heart it was. That's how you know - not only that God exists, but that He loves you.

I wouldn't want anyone to be in that kind of hardship, because pride can be a bear to overcome. But when God looks on you, smiles and holds out His hand to lift you up from your own stupidity - well pretending He doesnt exist is rather difficult.

It's my opinion that you're really only looking at it from one perspective. Science isn't about why things are, it's about how things tick.

The Bible could very well be true, but accepting it as truth requires a leap of faith in itself. The answers are self-contained, thus creating the problem of evidence.

Okay, no problem. Several historical references have been proven true. New findings might validate other Biblical claims, even the parting of the Red Sea.

And none of the prophetic texts predate Ezra. There is every possibility, especially given who the texts were directed at, that the "prophesies" were written after the fact. I can't prove they were, but there is also no evidence that they weren't.

Or not.

Unfortunately, unless the laws of nature are actually and obviously overturned, miracles are only apparent if you believe in them. I've had the opposite experience. Things I accepted as miraculous at the time were later seen to be possibly miracles, possibly random chance. It was that realization - that all the assumptions I had made were just that - that made me realize I don't know anything.

You may be right, but I've come to the conclusion that there is a distinct possibility that we only see the divine because we already believe that way.

And when I see a total lack of real evidence, pretending He does exist becomes impossible. It may be true, but I don't see it.

I like when i read things like this, rings a bell and start smiling, i know i share the same faith even with people i don't know and lives far away.

Because he is just a (fallen) angel, not God himself. Or maybe he's a lousy writer ?

In the Yezidic culture god has long since absolved Mr. Lucifer's deeds, so his reputation and status has been fully restored .

In the protestant religion (Lutheran) there is no purgatory and no hell, so no devil as well. Jesus took the sins of the world and its people on his shoulders, forever.


Choose what you want to believe :hmmm:

I'm not religious person at all but i cant deny or confirm to my self existence of God or some super-being or whatever lol.
From my point of view god may have created the universe.
Still i find it funny that people are required to thank him 3 or 5 times a day for living and the more they do it the closer to god and better people they are.
I always say that if god requires that of man he must have real ego problem.
On another hand the struggele between the good and evil is what propelers and shapes us.
World and life would be meaningless if only one exited.
So if god exists then maybe he knows what he is doing or maybe bible simply tries to froward this idea.

Science certainly cannot answer all the questions of the universe, but we don't deny science. Beyond that it is a matter of faith and each is subject to his own.

Every person, religious or secular has events in their life that one could deem a miracle or a random event. No different than bad things. Fate can deal hands good or bad, but I've never seen a miracle beyond science, you know, someone raised from the dead, a lost arm regrown. Most acts of great kindness seem to stem from humans, but I would think that's how God would expect us to act.

I studied greek for 2 years in bible college when I was young. As Steve stated, most prophecy was related to another era and was written after the fact, again denominations each define their own views.

Actually the bible says the Devil is powerful and great, but seems he's stupid. God's entire plan is laid out in a book before him, he knows he's powerless before God, yet he would fight on to total destruction. If he's so stupid he can't figure this out, why fear him or he is another creature made up so man can blame his failures yet again on something else.

Sure, and when you would be born in Saoudi Arabië, The Holy Koran.
Correct?

CaptainHaplo, you realy should read [url=http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136]this book[/quote], written bij Israëli scientists.

Or see this docu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-96hNrPcGg

Fish,

That book you mentioned postulates that there is no archeological proof of Abraham (for one). I specifically addressed that already - the existence of Abraham - who was born in Ur of the Chaldees - is given historical proof from the Ebla find. He and his birthplace were specifically mentioned in these secular texts. Just because 2 authors of a book want to ignore verifiable fact should give you a hint as to the veracity of their postulations.

The video you provided utilizes one of the authors of the book, so its reasonable to say that his demonstratable bias must be considered when looking at the video.

As for additional archeological proofs, many scholars disputed that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed. The Ebla tablets also reference these cities, showing that they were known and did in fact exist.

The 1988 discoveries in Tel Ar Amama provides a third party view of the end of the Exodus period. While this does not substantiate the existence of a man named Moses, it does offer proof that the Biblical account of the wanderings (as the Habiru) is accurate.

Believe what you want, but its disinginuous to ignore data that doesn't further the "debunking" some want.

So your answer is to ignore the question? Wow, you won me over.

And you should try questioning the bible sometime - read it without the assumption that it's true.

Except when he's "hardening our hearts".

It's easy to answer that.

"In the absence of knowledge confusion reign"

"In the absence of knowledge fantasy, sentiment, prejudice wishful thinking and assumption takes precedence"

"In the absence of knowledge nothing is certain"

The only way to know that God is good is by knowing God. The catch is no one can come to God unless it is God who comes to him first. People can always try to come to God or be religious but most people forget that meeting God doesn't only happen in special occasion such as in prayer or at the church vicinity. The truth is God never disconnects from all things including each of us.

Now I can't show you God but I can testify that God is good.

When I was a 7th grader and having a hard time and suffering God answered my cry to Him and answered my request. God literally gave me an explosion of love(love of Christ) to enable me to see Christ and all the glory that is God. Couldn't see s**t but very bright intense white light which I believe was coming from His face.

That was the start of my encounter with God. He never leave me since then on. God would give me dreams to warn me ahead of time of disaster or tragedy. He has also allowed me to feel other people's heart and intention from time to time though seemingly random. it's not bounded by distance and sometime time and there have been occasions where I felt the whole of some nation ahead of time. But it nos has become rarer and even stopped.

He gave me his spirit to dwell in me couple times that gave me an overwhelming peace that literally put a smile on my face. It also made my heart turned gentle. It wasn't weak. Well I cannot describe it in words. I have since lost it because I watch porn from time to time. But while it last I felt like the richest person on the planet. The peace was like an ocean inside me and I felt totally safe anywhere. I only needed to become quiet before an ocean of peace put a smile on my face. I was convinced with that there's no fortresses that couldn't be opened no hearts that couldn't be won.

There was also a time when I felt so angry at a person and God took over. He told me that his life was hard and God literally turned my immense anger to explosion of love. I literally love the person so much but I didn't know really why. It was sincere and not made up. I didn't tell him anything and he wasn't looking at me at the time. Since then he never bothered me any longer.

There was also a time in 2006 where I asked God for something a bit outrageous for most people. He gave me just what I wanted within 3 seconds. It still took too long for me. But I knew those 3 seconds was a test for me to wait. Mind you the answer lasted much longer than 3 seconds but it took 3 seconds before I was given what I asked.

In 2008 God revealed to me how it felt to be in death. I've since better understand the bible teaching of death and resurrection. I've done my own research too looking for reference in the bible and have since made it a document. If you're interested in reading them PM me and I'll send you the doc through email. I treasure this knowledge very much as it is the only secret that God has so far told me. It's nothing new its all in the bible.

The last was in 2009. In my 30 year or so of living I've done some confessing as I'm a Catholic but I never knew how it felt to be forgiven by God at all until one day God told me that He forgave all my sins all of them out of a sudden when I was sitting in the church pew. I didn't ask for it it was really God's initiative. The spontaneous response to God was that I;d forgive everybody that sinned against me(well with the exception the people in power in Singapore that is) because I was overwhelmed with JOY out of forgiveness.

I remember the years of my relationship with God. I carry them in my life. I treasure them. They give me strength and consolation. I'm a still a Christian not because of my belief any longer but because God took me in.

I know most people are probably unable to believe my testament or even mock me but I don't care. I just want to testify that God is so awesome!

I agree, always questions, you learn nothing but what someone tells you if you don't question.

A free mind to choose right from wrong denies the human and cultural factors of man.

A child born in poverty in the ghetto without loving parents will usually be in a gang before puberty. Having no one to really teach him right from wrong, his mind will be set before puberty to know wrong. Unless he is one of the lucky few to escape, he'll probably move on to be a criminal.

The same with many prostitutes. They get trapped in it by childhood, rather forced into it often why children, then laced with dope non stop until life to them becomes worthless.

A child beaten and abused often beats and abuses when grown.

Right from wrong is something that is taught by culture. Like most things in culture we learn these things at a young age. It doesn't exist in our hearts, that is self preservation.

Compare that to those who are taught right from wrong, those that are loved at a young age, they will most often grow up different.

The bible says to train a child in it's youth, sort of proves the point.

So again a bias towards those brought up in poverty and unloved and not raised correctly.

Wait, so omniscient god needs to run tests? Whatever for?

Yes, it is a setup. They are punished for making a choice without anyway of knowing the consequences of that choice. How could they have knowledge of good and evil without first eating from the tree? It's a catch 22.

God said "don't eat from that tree, cuz ur dead if you do." God doesn't say it's evil to eat from it. Just that man shouldn't eat from it. You'd think an omniscient being would be more careful with his language.

And how do Adam and Eve have any knowledge of what death is in paradise? How do they know that they must obey god? It's a pretty poorly thought-through test for being the product of the creator of the universe.

If the only way to the father is through the son, and faith supersedes deeds, then god doomed the majority of the world's population for millenia, because they had to wait that long before even having the opportunity to believe in Jesus in the first place.

Indeed, it's funny how the distribution of saved people on Earth is so dependent on geography. It's almost as if it's just a story made up by people for whom the Mediterranean basin was more or less the extent of the known world.


Yes, you can. When god issues a commandment condoning lifelong slavery, or protecting a slave owner from punishment if the slave he has fatally beaten lingers before dying (I guess the slave's family doesn't deserve justice in god's eyes), then yes, you can blame god for the evil of slavery. You can also blame him for the idea that women are property, that rape is not a big deal, and that pillaging and war are perfectly acceptable, as he commands and oversees so much of it in the OT. And you can blame him for the crimes of inaction that he committed while he was supposedly among us in human form. Jesus could have prevented so much suffering by saying "Don't own slaves" or "Never kill in my name" or "Don't torture" or "Treat men and women equally". But he didn't.

Oh well, I guess doing things like ensuring that there would be enough refreshments for a local wedding party took priority over that stuff.


God is omniscient. He knows what's in his book. Yet he does nothing about it. How is that not blameworthy?

Huh? Why is imperfection a good thing?

You defended the creation story earlier. Did you notice that there are two contradictory creation stories in Genesis, and that they can't both be right?

What does that say about the bible, when there's a glaring contradiction on the very first page?

Why is it not our place to question it?