QFT, thank you. If we would start "throwing out" people who can't speak, read and write proper German, we would have to throw out roughly 40% of the population in my estimate. If we include punctuation - 80%.

Also, what is this "behave as a German" bullcrap I'm reading? How does "a German" "behave", and do you (DarkFish) decide it, or do we need some official department for it? Last time I checked, this land was supposed to be free. And yes, that also includes freedom of religion. Freedom is always the freedom of the other. It is for ALL the people, EQUALLY, otherwise you DON'T HAVE IT. All that should matter is that people uphold the law. You have no business to decide who goes and who stays based on how they "behave", as long as they don't break the law.

The real problem is that too often courts of justice are making excuses and giving quarters to criminals because they take their "cultural background" or some such into account. They are thereby promoting a condition in which some people, based on their heritage / community, feel less bound to the law than others, which is fatal. All people should be equal under the law, and the penalty should be more based on what they did as a crime, not where they come from or who their friends are.

In addition, "throwing money at the problem" should stop immediately, too. It is far too easy in general in Germany to obtain social welfare money. A lot of people - that includes actual Germans, but the number is obviously disproportional in immigrant groups - have willingly settled or foolishly maneuvered themselves into a position where they are irrelevant for the job market and live from the tits of the welfare state. At the same time, many of those are working in clandestine employment, maximising the ripp off. There are whole family businesses working like that. This needs to stop.

And last but not least, I think our immigration laws are far too lax. We should look much more closely at WHO wants to come here, WHY and HOW they plan to support themselves once here. It should be a lot more in their own responsibility to be successfull here than that of the state. You would naturally cater to those more constructive individuals by adhering to what I wrote above: Stop throwing money at the problem.

Which sort of German must they speak? Does that mean they can kick out all the Germans who don't use Standard?
Behave like a German? Invade Poland?:03:
What on earth does a german behave like. One of the german people in this topic contributing his usual nonsenseical rants about demographics has often written about german behavior which many would describe as typical german behavior but he as a german has written about how he hates that typical german behavior.
Simple as that????????

Surely every official leaflet should be available in every officially recognised language in the country, which means they should all be available in Papiamento as well as several other languages of the Netherlands.
Plus of course since there is supposed to be free movement and free trade in Europe the official leaflets really should be available in every oficially recognised language in the EU.

It's not so much that Germans wrestle with multiculturalism, as long as it is clear that Germany is German and does not get abolsihed itself. But right this is the goal of some political factions, namely the left and the Greens. They hate Germany for being there, and want to delete it in princ iple. Everything foreign is better to them, than Germany. I personally would sack their citizenships and kick them out with a free ride to one of thosxe foriegn countries they admire so much more than their own home that is paying and feeding and nursing them. Some quotes, German originals and then the translation:

Jürgen Trittin, head of the Greens :
"Deutschland verschwindet immer mehr, und das finde ich schön"
Germany vanishes more and more, and I find that beautiful.

Claudia Roth, vice-head of the Greens:
"Deutsche sind Nichtmigranten, mehr nicht!"
German are non-migrants - nothing more.

Joschka Fischer , former foreign ministre and former head of the Greens:
„Deutschland muß von außen eingehegt, und innen durch Zustrom heterogenisiert, quasi „verdünnt“ werden.“
Germany must be contained from the outside, and must be made more heterogen by migration, it must be thinned out.

And now my two favourites which tell all you need to know about these sickos:

Green party'S leadership in a common explanation :
"Es geht nicht um Recht oder Unrecht in der Einwanderungsdebatte, uns geht es zuerst um die Zurückdrängung des deutschen Bevölkerungsanteils in diesem Land."
In the immigration debate, it is not about justice or injustice, but first for us it is about pushing back the German population share in this country.

Daniel Cohn-Bendit, left Green in the EU parliament:
"Wir, die Grünen, müssen dafür sorgen, so viele Ausländer wie möglich nach Deutschland zu holen. Wenn sie in Deutschland sind, müssen wir für ihr Wahlrecht kämpfen. Wenn wir das erreicht haben, werden wir den Stimmenanteil haben, den wir brauchen, um diese Republik zu verändern. "
We, the Greens, must make sure that as many foreigners come to Germany as possible. When they are in Germany, we must fight for their voting right. When we have reached that, then we wilkl have the share in votes that we need to change this republic.

Cem Özdemir, Turkish vice-head of the Greens:
„Der deutsche Nachwuchs heißt jetzt Mustafa, Giovanni und Ali!”
The German offsprings now are named Mustafa, Giovanni, and Ali.

This breed makes me sick. To imagine that these really are sitting in the German parliament, working for the deletion of Germany, makes me even sicker. This party, and many other left politicians, HATE Germany for being there, and everything and everyone that/who is not Germany, to them is better than Germany. They should give back their citizenship and piss off, really. They tell the Germans how wonderful it is to live as a German in a foreign nheighbourhood - but most of themselves live in houses and villas in noble and expensive city districts far away from these foreign neighbvourhoods and drive in huge limousines. Traitors to their country and destroyers they are.

@Skybird
Strangely enough one doesn't hear anything about those statements in the "normal" media like daily newspapers or the Tagesschau...:doh:

But if you ask them, many of them tell you that they do not wish to be Germans either. So what are they? They are surely none of us Germans, and they actively refuse integration. What they want is to change Germany so that it becomes like the country their forefathers came from in the 50s and 60s. They want it to become Islamic, and Turkish nationslistic, and ultra-orthodox patriarchalic.

So when the analysis does not produce the results you want, you switch to other methods for so long until one does?

Why? It is an integral part of the problem. There are three main problems: The Islamic nature of their home culture, the fetishist macho-culture of Turkish males, and the strong patriachalic family structures that does a lot of damage to psychological health of families and their internal structures. Social workers working with Turkish families will confirm what I say. Since dec ades they time and again run into the same problems, and mostly they do not get through.

Do you really think we have not tried that in the past 40 years? As I said above, the refusal of integration is something that is intentional in case of many Turks. There are also others that try to integrate, yes, and they care for their kids going to school and learning the language and gettiong jobs. But these are not typical, but a minority. Finally, Erdoghan the Great doe snot hide that for him migration is a weapon to succeed where the siege at Vienna failed, and his foreign minister or relgious minsitre, I forgot which of the two it was, explicitly said that with that reference himself. And erdoghan on visit in Cologne two years ago called for Turkls resisting integration and that they shoulds stay loyal to their Turkish identity and that it is a crime against humanity that they should be expected to learn the language, and integrate.

It'S not just about taliing funny. As I said on page one, an identity is n ot a stamp in an official document, but it is a feeling and love that has grown over time and that has its roots ijn the past and in the traditions that have influenced one'S own education and raise. Many Turks lack this, and do not see the legitimity of the demand that they must adopt to the circumnstance sin Germany and cannot stay lioked they are, just as if they still were in Turkey. They have to adapt to us, not we to them. The migrant has to chnage himself in order to live in the foreign society, that is called migration. If he is demanding the society to chnage according to his identity because he does not wish to chnage himself, then it is not migration, but colonialism.

So, I say there are quite many Turks that I would not mind to kick out of Germany. Not all, but a majhority of them. They pose nothing but problems to us, they are overrepresented in statistics on failing integration, failiung school aducation, fialing in jobs and employment, and crime, and many get more social wellfare and benefits than they ever pay back in taxes. This is the form of migration that in no way is a contribution and win for Germany, but is a hole without bottom, becasue statistically they have far more children than the quoted 2.1 per woman, which means they share of the overall population grows, while the share of netto payers in general declines. Now do the maths. They cost much more money than they contribute to public finances in any form.

And just btw: why is it necessary to give them special programs and special status, to make them learn the language, to make them integrate and to get education? No other migration group gives us such problems, not to mention crime. It'S always, always, people from Muslim countries, and thus dominantly Turks, Albanians, Afghans, Lebanese, Maroccans. The noticable exception are the Iranian communities, because many of them in Germany fled from the regime and represent the well-educated "Bildungsbürgertum" that also exists in Iran, being more influenced by Western culture and education than other population groups or Muslims nationalities. - But we do not have püroblems with Chjinese. Japanese. Koreans. Not with Spanish, South Africans, Indians. Not with Argentinians, Candians, Americans. Not with Australians, Russians, Poles. Not with Swerdes, Danes or Dutch. Notz with English, French or Italians.

It'S always the Muslims. It sounds like a parole or a sterteotype, but it is true. And what have thery all in common? Two things. Patriarchalic social structures at home, and Islam (which also foisters a strong patriarchalism).
So - can we agree that Islam and patriachalism obviously pose a problem here - or do you wish to change analysis mode until you get a result that is softer on the grim truth and hides it any better?

Thilo Sarrazin: Ich muss niemanden anerkennen, der vom Staat lebt, diesen Staat ablehnt, für die Ausbildung seiner Kinder nicht vernünftig sorgt und ständig neue kleine Kopftuchmädchen produziert.
(I must not recognise anybody who lives by the state, but rejects this state, does not reasonably care for the education of his children, and constantly produces more new little headscarf-girls.)

Well, it is en vogue to tolerate the abandoning of German culture. For the left, German hsitory started in 1933 and ended in 1945. The nine millennias before do not exist to them,. nor do German arts, literature, philosophy, sc inece and the tremendous heritage they gave to the global treasure chest of culture and progress. They are pathologically fixiated on these 12 years and now want to spend the rest of their lives with demonstrating to the world that they indeed think it was not good what happened back then.

As if the world cares that much for what they think.

What i'm trying to say is, while the immigrants from the middle east are not adapting to western culture, the middle east itself is.

Maybe future immigrants will have no trouble adapting to the west except that they speak a different language

And this complaint is someone who hates Germany and says he has no loyalty to Germany:rotfl2:
Once again the very mentaly mixed up skybird is so confused with so many things to hate that he condemns the very things he praises.

Does that sound like the Turkey of their fathers?:har::har::har::har:

Unless of course its the jews the negroes the chinese the poles the catholics or the protestants.
Hey you recently complained about blacks and muslims didn't you so clearly it isn't always muslims as you showed yourself to be a small minded bigot on several levels:down:
Bigots will always find some group to complain about, and amazingly bigots will always ignore reality and repeat the same old lies again and again no matter how often they are shown to be nothing but crazy ignorant bigotry spouted from a confused scared small minded person.

See see the all around liberal loving europeans face same problems as we Isralis do.
I find it rather funny twist of fate now seening ex nazi partys growing in popularity in germany and sweeden(the most liberal countries)becouse of flood of muslims .
Another reality check.

What?
Too many Russians, Ethiopians or Haredi?

Immigrant and minority communities in Europe, particularly Turks and Muslims, should make an effort to claim their agency in society and move away from the periphery to the center. They should (in fact many of them do) speak the language of their host countries and know something about the cultural traditions and sensitivities of the people with whom they share their lives.

But immigrant and minority communities can do that only with a genuine and authentic identity claim. Asking them to shed themselves of their core values and who they are would only generate a sense of further isolation and alienation. This may be exactly what right-wing European parties and political pundits want. But this is not the way to integrate them.

A prominent German historian, Hans-Ulrich Wehler:
"Islam is not a part of Germany. We participate in the western, Christian-Jewish culture. For centuries, Islam was an enemy of this Europe. Islam did not become part of the culture or the social life of Germany, regardless of whether you look at law, politics or constitutional thought."

He goes on to say:
"The great achievement of the high middle ages was the separation of religious and worldly power. The separation of Church and State is a fundamental fact in the West. This is the opposite of conditions in Muslim countries. We have to defend the advantage of our political culture ferociously."

Will German Muslims, over a couple of generations, become more "German," or will they remain ensconced within immigrant ghettoes?

For one, learning the German language is essential for better communication and interaction between different cultures. If people want to become successful citizens they should obey the law and respect the country's cultural norms.
Multiculturalism only works if you put in a political effort. It does not work if left alone. Immigrants must integrate. That's why it failed - Muslims have a bigger resistance to integrating than any other group.

Basically the multi-cultural approach has led to the formation of a minority that is not accepted as, and often does not wish to be, a part of the larger society. This is certainly not solely, or even largely, the immigrants' fault.
Most of the immigrants in Western-Europe come from Islamic countries, and what's more they come from the poorer, rural, usually more conservative, areas of these countries. This obviously clashes with modern western culture. And this is also were multiculturalism starts becoming delusional. These people simply can not be a succesful part of society without changing those aspects of their culture. It's not possible. It leads to massive problems. Multiculturalism is great, but only up to a point. You can learn and benefit a lot from foreign cultures, but for cultures to succesfully live together, they need to be compatible. They need the same basic outlook on things like human rights, civil liberty etc.

German. I don't care how much of a Turkish accent they have, but German. I don't care how many spelling errors they make, but German. I don't care if their grammar is at the same level as of a 3 year old kid, but German.

Well for starters Germans don't go shouting around like fishwifes pretending they are somehow more important than the people around them. They don't hit their women. They don't keep their women dressed up like a nun. They don't let their kids freaking steal and wreak havoc to the neighbourhood. They respect our system of politics and don't intimidate or attack people whom they not agree with.

Now I'm not saying that every Turk behaves like that, but I sure know more Turks that do than that don't. The Turks who don't behave like that, please let them stay. The Turks that do, get the hell out.

I agree that Papiamento is an exception, because in the end we did conquer the Antilles. But even then, Papiamento (and English) are only official languages in the Antilles. The only official languages in the Netherlands are Dutch and Frisian. Yet while Frisians are expected to speak Dutch, as you won't find any Frisian on official leaflets, the not officially recognised languages of Turkish and Arabic are abundant.

Your argument that leaflets should be available in every officially recognised language is complete moot, because the only official languages of the Netherlands are Dutch and Frisian (and by extension Papiamento and English)

This argument is moot as well as neither Arabic nor Turkish are official EU languages.
I'm sure that if you want a leaflet in Bulgarian or Slovakian or Estonian you'd have a very hard time finding one. While if you want a leaflet in the non-EU-languages of Turkish or Arabic you just have to look and they are there.

Now can you please point out where I used the word "religion" or "Islam"?
That's right - I didn't. This isn't a religious question so please don't make it one.

I can agree with this.
But there are also things that aren't in the law. Being a general ass may be legal, but should we accept it from a foreigner? If you rent someone a room in your house, and that someone turns out to be a complete ass, you throw him out. Why can't we do that with foreigners?

I agree with this. I'm a socialist, and I support social welfare money with all my heart, but you shouldn't get it if you don't do anything for it. If you can work, you should work.

I agree with this.

As Skybird says, they don't see themselves as German. If they speak Turkish and have the Turkish culture, one can question how "German" they actually are.
3rd generation, or 2nd generation for that matter, or even 1st generation Turks that speak German and behave like a German can't be called "guests" as far as I'm concerned. But the people that don't are exactly that.

Quite other way around dont pretend that you know something.
Muslims are trouble here because of their all too fragile religious feelings and archaic blame the world or better Israel for all my trouble mentality which is carefully nursed by religius leaders.
First step to solve a problem is to realize that it exist.

So you are ridiculously trying to claim that each of those groups and their inflow into Israel have not been long running bones of contention within the country?
Next you will be telling me that there havn't been serious issues between Separdi and Askenazi since before the formal creation of the State:doh:

What German? come on you said Germany and all things germanic was a favourite subject of yours, so which German language?

Really??????
wow??????
A nun? thats a christian thing isn't it.
Oh of course you mean the very very small number of women that go for the middle eastern traditional style.
Bloody hell, where were you when all we was hearing was about the thieving ostlanders and their swarming degenerate offspring?
Bugger me sideways, are you serious?????? do you live under a rock?

Oh dear, is this going to be another case of "dutch churches don't ring bells"?
Would you perhaps like to check on the status of the official and regional languages of the Netherlands and their applicability in areas such as literature from government and administration especially as all of those publications would come under the "official leaflets" which you complained about.

Correct, I don't see Cyprus pushing for its language to be recognised anytime soon though I do see Spain recognising Berber and Arabic shortly.

I see you have some interest in Israeli history but have things a little bit twisted.
The issues between sefaradi and ashkenazi Jews existed during 50 to 70 mostly.During and after emigration of Jews from Arab states.
The issues still exist but mostly in orthodox communities while the mix of both is current Israeli culture.
This should be a topic for another thread i guess.and has sothing to do with current thread.

@ Skybird.
I just wanted to point out that the pre-existing problem of Turks "incorporating" into German society is now also influenced by the "West - Islam Conflict(?)". But, to put it blundly, it is now an internal problem of German society. And of course how you solve your problem, is primarily your issue. But because we are talking about Germany here, the solution you will eventually choose will echo all around Europe and influence us all.


.

You surely know the difference between "Germanic" and "German"? Cause if you do you clearly can't read or didn't bother to. I've never said Germany is a favorite subject of mine. I was talking about the old Germanic tribes.
And as for what German, for the umpteenth time I don't care. Low German, High German, one of the countless subdialects, I really don't care. If it's German it's fine (and you surely don't claim that there's no such thing as a German language?)


Is that your whole argument? Not much of an argument at all, is it?

Oh yes, and because some christian extremists wear headscarfs it's immediately a part of German culture:roll:
Very very small number? Then how can you explain that something like half of all Turkish/Arabic women I see wear headscarfs?

Who do you mean with ostlanders? Poles?
Anyways, people should not steal. Immigrants should certainly not steal. No matter where they come from or what religion they adhere to.

Immigrants are generally more criminal. You want statistics? Why don't you try http://www.rtl.nl/%28/actueel/rtlnie...criminelen.xml? To quote from the article (translated): "In 37% of all criminal cases the main suspect is an alien."
Wait, what? 37%?! Aliens by far do not make up 37% of our population.

A rock that is apparently so big that I've seen it on multiple occasions. I've even experienced it myself. My dad is a supporter of Geert Wilders, so right before the elections he had an election poster taped on our window. First some Turkish pricks come knocking on our door demanding my mum to take it down, swearing at her when she refused. Next they come threatening us. A few days later a rock had miraculously made its way through our window at night.

I certainly hope this is going to be another case of "dutch churches don't ring bells" (something I never claimed BTW). Your main argument in that case was basically that somehow my ears were disfunctional. Well, I can assure you they aren't, thank you very much.

Anyway, to get back on the point of languages, legally speaking there isn't any official language here. So legally speaking your argument is even more complete moot than it already was.
In popular usage the Netherlands does have official languages, and neither Turkish nor Arabic are one of them.

So they can speak any of the languages of Germany (or any other european language for that matter) , yet it doesn't matter if no one they are talking to can understand a word they say as that is perfectly acceptable as long as they don't speak one of two other languages
Can you point out how such a requirement could in any way be positive or useful and what possible benefit it could yield?

They are short and to the point, it was the best possible answer to those ridiculous things you wrote.
Though perhaps you fail to understand how ludicrous your two statements were, after all people wouldn't write really silly statements if they realised they were really silly statements would they.

:har::har::har::har:nuns:har::har::har::har:
BTW some parts of the Netherlands still hold on to dutch culture don't they, little distinctive things in some of the fishing villages...like women carrying on the local dutch tradition of keeping the head covered.
Can you explain why immigrants must adapt to dutch culture when the dutch are throwing their culture away, after all you ain't insisting on a return to traditional fashion or for the banning of it for some people in holland so why are you insisting that others do so?

Can you provide an academic study for your claim?
It is easily explained darkfish, its your perception which warps and gives you such views.

You are young ain't you.
They were germans in errrr.....germany.:up: which is why it was a perfect example
Though of course now you hear the same crap said about poles portugese greeks italians bulgarians romanians slovaks......just like you always hear the same crap about every bloody nationality or group since the earliest recorded histories.

Statistics can say many different things and generalities are not a very good thing to go on when you want specifics.
After all going on generalities you end up with stereotypes which are a indication of closed minded bigotry and I know you are not as warped in the mind as skybird so you should be able to avoid that pitfall.
Interesting.
Very interesting.
As you have previously displayed a severe ignorance of your laws and gone out of your way to show that you din't know the difference between a verdict of guilty and not guilty could you perhaps explain in simple terms the meaning of the word..."suspect".

Take a look at German politics. Same crap as you are complaining about.....but done by germans.

No, my arguement was that your perception was warped and you were making sweeping generalisations about specifics while being totally ignorant of the specifics


Oh dear, you manage to take a small step forward then hit a mental block and jump back even further than where you started from.

It seems some Dutch try to be more GERMAN than Germans while defending Dutch idenity or is it all the same?

What the freaking heck are you talking about?

Nice twisting of my words mister. You know perfectly well what I mean.

That's the easiest way of discussing, isn't it? Just state your opponent's claims are false and not provide any evidence for it.
I'm very sorry, but just because you say something is false it doesn't automatically make it false.

"Dutch" tradition? Tradition of one or two places in the bible belt yeah.

Whaddyamean throw our culture away? I just explained to you it isn't part of Dutch culture at all.



Statistics are hard to find, all I could find was this wikipedia page which mentions that 46.9% of all Turkish women wears a headscarf (you're welcome to search for other statistics). Very close to the 50% I mentioned, isn't it? So far for my "warped perception"....

Jeez, of course there are criminal Germans as well. I never denied that. Which is why it is a perfect example for nothing.:roll:

Yes, statistics can often be read in a number of ways. But that doesn't make them false.

So far I haven't seen *you* produce any evidence for your claims. Are you going to? Because if all you can contribute to this discussion is your own opinion that you present as truth, it's not much of a discussion, is it?

Very interesting indeed.

I remember you claimed to be some expert on Dutch law? If so you can surely agree with me that there is a certain principle called "innocent until proven guilty". So until a suspect is convicted it isn't anything more than a suspect, no matter how guilty he is. Because not everyone in these statistics was convicted yet they couldn't call them anything else.

No matter how you look at these statistics, they're different from what you'd expect. These statistics either mean that either lots of immigrants by chance happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, the justice system is severely bigoted, or aliens are more criminal. I'd say the latter is most likely.

I'm not talking about German politics, I'm talking about what I have seen in my life. I come from a poor leftist neighbourhood with about a 70% Dutch and 30% Turkish population. I find it rather remarkable that we have only been harassed and threatened by Turks, while there are at least twice as much political opponents of my dad of Dutch heritage.

Yes, my witnessing the Dutch customs everyday makes me totally more ignorant of the specifics than you:yep:

Oh dear, your claim is suddenly not valid anymore so you just start spewing random crap about me jumping back:doh: