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Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1520296)

What do you complain about? It'S at the very basis of any cosim, and has been seen as a valuable tool for military training as well. Compared to it, a cosim's sequence of play and strategic "depth" - I would not call it that - is shallow, and just a sequence of repetitive automatically carried out actions (for that reason real-time strategy games, at least all I have ever tried over the past 15 years or so, hardly are strategy games at all, they do not pose a challenge to your strategic imagination - you just find the one winning playing mechanism that is successful and then repeat that one in every match with your mouseklicks as fast as you can, mostly it is about in what seqeunce to produce units, and producing them fast). The basis of any strategic thinking is the balacning of the three factors space, time and matter (fields, moves, pieces) in various, ever-changing constellation, and how the one can be traded for the other. When you think of it, any military problem comes down to a constellation of these three factors, from logistics over Blitzkrieg to gaining important grounds.

Chess is not about a given strategy in a specific constext or environment, like in a cosim where you have these and no other rules and this and no other map, and such counters and no others. It is about strategy itself, and the need to constantly change and adapt it. A Cosim does not give you that challenge raised by ever-changing challenge, it'S always the same limited set of types of challenges. A cosim teaches you strategic thinking at best in the context of the game system, but not beyond. You cannot carry it over to for example economic problems or behavior at the stock market in reality, because your way of handling space, matter and time within the cosim'S context cannot that easily, if at all, taken over to the way you want to set up the policy and competitive behavior of your business company. Chess trains your strategic thinking at a much more profound, basic, general level less depending on the context of the rules of that game, and that game alone. And that's why you can benefit from that in real life as well - not from the rules of chess, but your habit of being used to handle and balance these three factors on the chessboard, and in a cosim and in real life as well: space, time and material. It'S a bit like being a "culture-free" (="game-rules-free") training of strategic thinking.

Not related to real life...?! :03: I must say that chess has had a certain, maybe not spectacular but still undeniable influence on my way of thinking and analysis. It'S hard to tell whether I liked chess because it met my analytical mindset, or my analytical attitude emerged due to having learned chess (in my early childhood). Probably a mixture of both.

However. :haha: The other things chess can teach you wonderfully, are: patience, and discipline. Not before and not after the right time has come, you carry out the most appropriate action. And that also is an art you can use very well in life. The right move at the wrong time, the wrong figure for the right task, a misled situational understanding while having advantage in time and material - and you nevertheless spoil it. Only when all three come together, you secure the win: time, space and material.

-----------------

BTW, there are quite some competently done PC cosims. It helps you to save table-space, and money.

A classic is The Operational Art Of War III, which is a reference title. I do not like the font and am not happy with the itnerface, but I must admit with that complaint I seem to be alone - I never heared anyone else complaining about it (except the fonts).

I currently digged myself into the matter of Modern Campaigns: Danube 85, doing the full campaign with the front from Denmark down to Austria. Again, I initially cmplained about the interface giving me some visual problems due to the smallnesss of some things, but I have adressed that by using a map mod, and having edited the design of unit counters myself, so now it is a bit more friendly to the eyes, or so it seems to me. A title I also would recommend.

And available for free, there is Steel Panthers: Main Battle Tank (or World War II, if you prefer that era). Still an outstanding title, despite the looks showing it's age.

First I wasn't complaining about anything just gave my opinion about chess. I don't mean it was a bad game I just think it's a too abstract game for me. Too abstract to relate to real life situation at least that's how I perceive it but you seemed to argue that it trains your mind to adapt to different changing challenges even though chess is a pure abstract game. Well I may be able to see that point but other games teach you that too . . .

As for RTS yea I do completely agree that there's no strategy at all in RTS games or hardly any strategy in it. In fact I even found little strategy in games such as Hearts of Iron 2(never tried the third) due to AI being not a very capable opponent( and the lack of human psychology in AI).

As for cosim,
But I think I just wrote what I've learned from one specific German board game which I listed about 18 points of them. That too give the players training to adapt to different ever changing challenges like chess does. It really does and does it much better at least to me with multiple enemies and much more chaos and uncertainty! So it wouldn't be valid to state that only chess can teach one the ability to adapt to ever changing situation. Shogun for one teaches you just that without being too abstract. That game teaches the art of war to put it bluntly maybe not as comprehensive as Sun Tzu's Art of War but it does teaches one the strategic aspect of art of war! No kidding!
I don't have anything against chess :03:. I really don't. Just that because of its abstraction I found it hard to play and master well but I have to admit I never give it a serious attempt. I don't find this difficulty with the board game Shogun for example.

I played Steel Panthers but somehow electronic adapted board game never attracted me much largely because I feel I couldn't outguess the enemy because it has got no psychology and even I never seemed to attempt to play a serious strategic game with AI or rather compelled to give a serious thinking and felt no reward for having defeated it. For example while playing board game such as Shogun people who are not used to thinking hard for extended period of time like 3 hours or more(5 hours on first game) will find it difficult to keep up in the last hour or minutes. I have had friends becoming agitated because they were too much damn tired for having to think hard for extended period of time. One even needed to lay down for a while to rest before the game ended because he was really mentally drained up and to think that they are almost ten years younger than me! As for me being a nerd who spent extended period of hours studying until 2-3AM really paid off by granting me extended mental stamina and allows me to be still able to think well. ;)
In the end somehow I find witchcraft appeal to a box of components and placing those on the table and playing them with other people. :DL

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl (Post 1520342)

I enjoy playing Axis and Allies as a casual game, but as a strategy game it has about as much depth as Risk, a game whose depth of strategy is aptly described by its name. A&A suffers from the lack of a fog of war and the resultant strategic possibilities and pitfalls, as well as an oversimplified probability mechanic. The pre-arranged and unchangable alliances don't help matters any. And then there's setting up all those damn pieces...:roll:

A simple game I would recommend is "Diplomacy", which is set in pre-WW1 Europe. Nothing is left to chance in this game, but rather to your ability to think creatively and read other players. All moves are planned secretly on paper (which you may or may not choose to reveal to others) and made simultaneously. The actual game mechanics are a bit like GO, which is to say that they are focused upon guile and maneuver, but the real game takes place between the players, not on the board. No single power can stand alone at the outset, so the emphasis is placed upon, unsurprisingly, diplomacy.

Yeah I'm aware that it's not a very detailed strategy game but it does still allow one to analyze to try to defeat multiple human enemies. It's basically a game of placement a little like chess only much less abstract(no pun to Skybird or chess just me who's too stupid to play chess :O:)

As for diplomacy I too once got interested in it until I played it on the web.
The game will definitely ruin friendships(and to think I already haven't had great friends to board game with) Frankly i hate the game which forces the players to lie and I'm not a very wicked person and I don't believe in being one either nor I am very good in lying made worse with easily trusting other people. :damn:

I found a more interesting way to play Axis and Allies called fog of war or blind play. The downside that it needs 2 BOARDS :doh:

Some notes on it:

Blindplay or “Fog of War” Axis and Allies
The club plays almost exclusively a blindplay variant that introduces a significant “fog of war” aspect and thereby greatly multiplies the range of options and strategies available to all players. It rewards focused and careful players that are able to imagine and keep track of unseen enemy units but also allows new opportunities for daring, aggressive and even reckless strategies that are otherwise precluded in traditional play.

Key Blindplay Rules

Referee: The Club prefers having a referee to help speed up play.
Purchases, Non-Combat Movement, and Mobilization not shared with opponents.
Reconnaissance is conducted by bombers, one IPC per bomber, and occurs after follows purchases and before combat movement. Bombers cannot be used again in the turn. AA guns and battleships may fire at reconning bombers (both hit only on 1).
Naval Movement: Non-combat naval movement is only possible in sea zones controlled by your alliance (submarines excepted). Otherwise, naval movement occurs during combat movement phase. If one wishes to control sea zones, one must declare surface warship movement into those sea zones. If one does not wish to declare such movement and wishes to pass unnoticed through potentially hostile sea zones, the referee can check sea zones for enemy ships.
Reserve Forces: When opponent attacks a superior defending force, the defender need not declare all his defenders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MH (Post 1520333)

True.
Try civilization 3 or 4 exellent turn based games for PC.
You can also play them on line or via email or even hot seat with friends.

You dare mention Civ without mentioning Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri! :stare:

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl (Post 1520342)

Never played A&A for that reason. I loved Diplomacy and played it at school quite a bit. The fun part is off the board where you need to use your guile and diplomacy skills to set up alliances, knife opponents in the back whilst hugging them and smiling to their faces. Great game if you can get a good group together who are into it.

I found it very boring WW2 mode was far to easy, campaign was dumb down and AI was unbalanced. Anniversary edition might be an improvement.

You can't beat Company of heroes even though not a board game idea but best WW2 RTS game ever to come out. Brought the gold edition comes with expansion and playing the British campaign atm, brilliant game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005 (Post 1520691)

:hmmm: Frank we're talking Axis and Allies the board game not Axis and Allies the PC game :D so what AI would that be? :O:

Castout, my argument about chess and cosims was that cosims are the more specific context in which some strategic thinking takes place, while chess is more unspecific. By that I mean that the greater the abstraction of it all is, the more diverse is the number of totally different contexts to which the thinking pattern can be adapted, while the more specific the context of former "training" was, the more limited to situations being relatively similiar to that context you are in benefitting from that in other situations.

I have read your list with traits you attributed to cosims, but I do not agree with all of that. Cosims, for the most, to me are a challenge of doing a good ammount of organisaing things and moving a lot of stuff around, sometimes hundreds of counters. I admit that one can take pleasure from that, too, and quite considerable ammounts of. But even the cosims I like have not give me anything I benefitted from im real life. Chess has, both privately, and professionally.

And when, as a young juvenile, I met my to-be mentor and trainer (meditation, martial arts, swords, a bit of archery), he first wanted me to learn Go as well. :) He gave up that demand when he understood that I already was engaged in chess, saying that it serves the same purpose he intended (I know Go by the rules, but not much more, so I rank as a total beginner).

Anyhow, this reply just because I believe you understood me wrong. And after all, it's all just about games, and how to enjoy best what one likes.

BTW, I have done some more testing with TOAW3 this night, and solved a CTD problem by using a -nosound command line (it still is a beta, the latest update), getting a stable game with very much imporved looks and a compüromise in fonts and visualinterface that I can live with, I also ediated all backgropund to make them simply plain grey windows with no pictures. With 4 years derlay I now am ready to re-engage with this title, I really recommend it now. It seems to be great for PBEM games, too, many scenarios are optimised for that.

And I forgot one recommendation earlier: Conquest of the Aegean, a dramatically well-done cosim without turns and "fields", and with the by far best AI I have ever seen in any game. It kicks the hell out of me most of the time and plays really nasty and surprising, giving me the perfect illusions to play against an uncalculatable human. A new title using the same system, Battle for the Bulge, has been released this summer, but I do not know how far the patching process is.

And for a title that is free, this one is well-done, too:
http://www.armoredbrigade.com/download.html

i play armored brigade from time to time but still not too much of strategy to me there but enjoyable and fun nonetheless.

As for the 18 points or so I made that was not just from comsim in general but all came from just one specific board game(shogun). Try playing that if you have the chance :O:. I've played other board games which teach you much less or have little or very little education value to it and more about entertainment and fun too. Not all board games carry the same weight.

Umm I think I got you right. You were saying basically just because chess if abstract it doesn't mean it cannot teach one anything with regard to life's perspective. I think I can see your point and appreciate it. :03:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Castout (Post 1520728)

Umm I think I got you right. You were saying basically just because chess if abstract it doesn't mean it cannot teach one anything with regard to life's perspective.

Nööö, not really: I said that right becasue it is more abstract it can teach you about other situations a bit better than a game which is more specific in its focus. :O:

It's a gamer's version of the scientific reliability-validity-dilemma. :DL You cannot have both - the more you focus on the one, the less you get of the other, and vice versa. ;)

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliabi...3%A4ts-Dilemma :lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1520735)

Actually that already crossed my mind too :O:

The thing is our brain is designed in such a way so that more efficient result could be gotten from frequent usage. I've noticed that while playing certain board games I tend to get a mild headache which is only noticeable towards the end or after the game(usually after the game though). And it's not due to illness or high blood pressure or anything.

This headache will gradually diminishes after frequent plays of that specific board game. I sincerely believe it's the neuron pathways connecting in a way they were never before. The brain is rewiring itself. It can only do this if one gives a serious effort to the thinking process despite the difficulty.
If one just simply plays without committing to winning there's no way the brain is going to form new pathways.

I take it it's the same or similar process happening when one plays chess regularly :yeah:

Edit now I just re read your previous post and it became a lot clearer well English is not my foremost virtue (sheepish)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Castout (Post 1520739)

:D

I have a university diploma in clinical psychology, and we also needed to do some stuff on psychophysiology and neurology and brain. It's the first time I heared that neurological activity patterns that have not be run before should cause a headache, and brain neurons themselves also cannot feel or cause sensations of pain. Also, neurological "rewiring" does not take place from one instance to the next, but just repeated and repetitive practice, again this is a painless process. ;)

If you have headaches during playing, this can have many origins, from stress, over your body'S position while sitting (especially neck and back), to bloodpressure, environmental factors (light, bad air, noise), and other things like that. Headaches are mostly caused by sensory input by the nervous system being interpreted as "pain" in the brain, or the blood vessels in the brain changing their volume and swelling, increasing brainvolume and implying pressure on the whole thing (making pressure sensors ringing the - painful - alarm bell). Swelling brains also are likely to influence your cognitive functions and the activity of the effected brain areas sooner or later. Brain neurons have no pain or pressure sensors, that'S why during brain surgery you get an anestesia for cutting through thre skin, flesh and bone, but not the brain matter itself - certain types of brain surgeries even are done with the patient being conscious, he does not feel the cutting of neurons, but must report any change in his general body perceptions or cognitive functions.

Find some less exotic explanation for why you have headaches when playing certain games. ;) Neural re-construction of your brain network are not the cause, I promise you.

Price of boardgames

The price of board wargames today is a result of the dwindling supply and the fact that many are out of print.

They have become collectors items. I object to the prices asked for pseudo war games like Risk and Axis and Allies today.

The world is turning away from the physical games and towards the video game 'imaginary' experience.

Personally, I turned away from the video gaming and went back to a genre that made sense to me. I invested some writing time, folks invest some reading time, and it costs nothing.

I have the Guadalcanal one, but I don't have anyone to play with.:yawn:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 1520747)

Umm I always assumed that way because the headache would diminish after more play though the tensions would not. It's most obvious when playing euro game the first time that put thinking first and foremost. In fact I had only this headache on my first and second time playing Shogun and not other games.
Umm maybe the headache was caused by mental drain or tiredness but the rewiring is definitely there as I found playing to be easier and progressively easier the more I play which is signified by the lack of headache unlike in the first or second game.

And I never said that brain wiring happening from one instance to the next :shifty:. You missed the point that a board gaming session could last 3-4 or even 6 hours and much of that time is spent on certain certain type of thinking so it is a repetitive process lasting for several hours.

It might not be the brain rewiring that caused the headache perhaps simply mental drain but the brain does indeed form new pathways made evidence by the getting easier to play the same game with much the same tensions. I simply took a liberal conclusion if it was so tiring and a challenge to think evidenced by the slight headache then the brain will rewire itself much like muscle ache. What is surprising is that the challenge and the headache diminishes after every play, most notably after the first play so somehow it does an indication of the brain being more efficient in its thinking processing.

It's similar to the condition of studying something new for extended period of time where the difficulty gets diminish as I become used to reading the book for some pages. No headache in this instance though. But I found it easier to read and understand the book or concept after some time( some substantial minutes put in from 30- 60 minutes).

Heck even just listening to certain type of music or sound could cause activation of certain part of brain. It's easy to stimulate the brain. Mid brain activation is popular here nowadays. The children after being exposed to certain type of sound that's supposed to activate their mid brain could read while being blindfolded, smell colors, see blindfolded, and solve cubic puzzle blindfolded within a very very short time and riding bicycle while being blindfolded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymond6751 (Post 1520767)

The world is turning away from the physical games and towards the video game 'imaginary' experience.

Actually board gaming has never been so popular now at least that's how I perceive it. People are coming back to social gaming than electronic gaming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee (Post 1520853)

I have the Guadalcanal one, but I don't have anyone to play with.:yawn:

Aye I would probably just play the game once or twice too :nope:. People just have fewer friends as we get older and older. My best friend is the one from my primary school time. It's just harder for me to make best friends with new people nowadays. People are just more reserved as they get older.

I put it short, Castout:

Learning does not hurt. Never. ;) :DL Not physically, and not in a transferred sense.

You will not find any neurologist or brain physiologist in support of that theory of yours. Neurons can establish new connections in neural networks, and in side the brain. But it is not as such a simplified process and not to be accompanied by physical sensations. That olyu are sitting at the table for 6-8 hours, has more to do with it. I occasionally needed to sit at a cashdesk for 6 and 8 and 10 hours, years ago. And although I did not learn anything there and my brain slowed down into coma mode :) - I also had headaches and felt a drain of concentration and focus after some while and could not multiply 2 and 3 for a correct result of 6 at the end of my shift. ;) The headache could be helped by getting a better chair, and moving a bit if situation allowed, and avoiding cold wind touching my neck.

The only way neurons in the brain can produce pain themselves , is infections. Such diseases are rare, but they are from hell. There is for example an infection by amebas, that overcome the blood-brain-barrier and enter the brain, there starting to eat the isolating myelin sheath of neural axons. The reult is a pain as intense that it floods your consciousness - and cannot be avoided at all, becasue this sensation cannot be redcued by tranquilizers and painkillers, no matter which one - the whole chemical and physicological process by which painkillers become effective, is being bypassed. A disease like this must be amongst the most desparte, hopeless things that can happen to humans, or any organsim with higher brains. It's living hell. You are doomed to live through the most intense pain sensations the nedural network can produc e, all time long, and there is no way to tame it. Even when being put into sleep or artificial coma, the pain sensations still are there.

But learning does not destroy the myelin sheat of axons, thankfully. :D

Myelin sheats help to increase bioelectrical signal speed along the axons by making the electric potential "jump" from one rupture of these sheats to the next, instead of needing to travel through all the axon between two such points.

:hmmm: Ahh thanks for the xplanation. I've a feeling I need a better chair maybe though it would be just for one game :DL that will probably not going to happen again. At our first Shogun game we did play on the floor for about 5-6 hours straight.

But I never said anything about pain just mild headache that though may not be symptom of the brain making neuron pathways may indicate either tiredness or being mentally drain from playing this particular game and which seemed to diminish after subsequent plays which I took to indicate the brain being more proficient to process the thinking process and pattern while playing that particular board game hence the new pathways.

Hmm but then again may be it's because the game was just so mentally demanding and the resulting stress. I haven't found another game that match the stress level of Shogun. It does get easier with more plays.

After all this I still found myself interested in the damn kids game :damn:. The only thing keeping me at bay is the realization I would not be able to play it often.

Axis and Allies Anniversary Edition: game which trains strategic thinking, multi enemies with allies, naval, air and land battles though not tactical . . . . global scope . . . .can it be so wrong?

And so I relented to the temptation. Can't say I regret buying it. Bought it near original MSRP at $135.00 while many other new copies abroad are selling more than 500 bucks.

Played it on Saturday with two other friends who came without appointment to my surprise. I played the Allies and we played for 5 hours from 6 PM to 11 PM excluding setting up and rule explaining. We also used custom rule which I named single board naval fog of war and modified submarine combat.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/...-naval-warfare
The custom rule explaination may sound or look complex or more complex that it actually is. The custom rule is actually easy to be remembered since it follows common sense, just that writing the whole things makes it look complex with so many sentences that had to be broken down to points.

A picture of a set up game

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...udus/111-1.jpg

I've realized because of the fixed setup the game opening gambit for each player or nation power will likely be the same more or less.

and @Skybird: no headache for this one though in 5 hours we were mentally drained. Only Shogun caused me mild headache on first time playing it. Well I accept that it wasn't due to the brain making pathways :-)