:D . Yepp, not unlike BIs mil contracts. VBS is available to the consumer market as well, at a hefty pricetag - few people own it. Can't wait for DCS A-10 either. :rock:

Scrapser,

Have patience, we have 2 mods of the great TOMI in the wait.
If that comes out we have almost a perfect uboat sim.

I've read all the replies so far and want to keep this idea alive if possible. Many have offered reasons why it wouldn't work but if you look carefully at some of your arguments you will see you are trying to fit the idea back into the existing marketing model. No disrespect but you need to remember this would be a completely new approach in both how the sim is developed and the market that would purchase it.

For example, it would not appeal to the casual gamer because the casual gamer is not the target audience, so they should not be considered as part of the formula. Yes, a few may catch wind of the project and buy into it but that's a happy side effect.

It's also an attempt to produce a highly detailed simulation that pays for itself and gives the developers/publisher a return for their effort but is not meant to be a money making machine like the console gaming market is set up. This is what is wrong with the current PC market. The publishing companies keep trying to produce titles that are essentially, "fire and forget" titles that make them money with minimal effort on their part. Get it?

The users are in it for the fun. The modders are in it for the challenge and pride of accomplishment. Developers are a mixed bag. I'm sure many of them are also gamers, but I bet that's the exception...not the rule. A project of this sort would have to be embraced by people who have the passion for the resulting end product and are not concerned simply with making money.

Welcome to my world most games are $100 AUD (Australian $) 1AUD = .90 US
and then developers and publishers wonder why there is piracy

How much are you prepared to pay for such a game???

how much will it cost to make this game???

how many copies do you expect to sell??

well the avage compuer dev cost is = $28 million
http://www.develop-online.net/news/3...as-high-as-28m

SH4 sold 50k http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=161973 (post #3) so lets estimate you new game will sell 50k also.

28,000,000 / 50,000 = 560

then there would be other costs involved (disturbution, taxes, store profit etc.).

Are you realy goning to pay around $700 for this sub game???

and at that price i doubt that you'd sell 50k copies pushing the price even higher.

Just a little precision.

That's the high end for a multi-platform game. The article you linked said a single platform game runs about $10 million. If so, that's quite a lot more than I'd have guessed for this game.

Your point remains valid. Do the math and you can come to no other conclusion.

Yeah!

And that always make me chuckles when I see some comments...

The SH series had obviously never been a blockbuster.

Yeah my example isnt ment to be spot on... its just an example. (a guess-timate)

but everyone wants this new sub sim to be the `crem del la creme`.
look at dev cost for Gran turismo "$60 million" and gran turismo is single platform (PS3 only).

so what im getting at is making a high end sub sim for the `niche' market is just not profitable.

it's sad but true.:wah:

I couldn't afford a nice car, but I could get a fixer-upper.
I couldn't afford a nice house, but I could get a fixer-upper.
They'll never make the sub sim of my dreams, so... well you get the idea.

And I beleive that "fixer-upper" is soon to be released. It's called SH5 :O:

Why do they have to ?

Game consumers are like salivating dogs. :yep:

Will fight amongst themselves and...

Will take and bone or scrap tossed at them. :haha:

I had to change my shirt after viewing the new screenshots from that German mag. :D

I appreciate what is being argued here but again I must remind everyone the information, the research, is taken from the existing market dynamics. That $10 million estimate could very well include factors that would not come into play if a company were to take a radical approach to developing a high end sim.

And yes, I think it would be safe to say a sim of the caliber I am thinking of would likely cost at least $100 a pop if not much more. But for that money you would get something with incredible detail and realism and it would not be pushed out the door until it was at a stage where bugs were actually hard to find.

It may sound like a lot of money to spend on a title but think about this...how much would you be spending or have already spent on SH3, SH4, SH5, (SH6?)??? With a high end sim like I envision you would be buying the last sub sim you would ever need and if done right, the developer could make the core code portable to transfer as significant new technologies come available which at this point would mostly be graphics and AI.

I'm thinking way outside the box here and hope others will too.

I will be making my opinions of SH5 when I receive my copy on Tuesday...as to whether or not it will remain installed on my hard drives or not remains to be seen. I am looking forward to seeing what it will do. But I digress...

I would personally pony up the dough for a title that had the depth and realism akin to some of the titles I cherished back in the early years of gaming...Like "Falcon IV" for example, whose 600+ page binder still occupies a prominent place on my bookshelf next to my desk. People used to tell me I was insane (my wife included) for buying a game whose instruction manual was bigger than the dictionary I had sitting on my desk at the time...but I couldn't find a game out there whose "realism" came as close as Falcon IV.

I wish there were more indy development houses like neoQB (Rise of Flight: The Great Air War) or DCS (Black Shark, A-10) produce Ultra-realistic simulators for their niches willing to step up to the plate and tackle our particular Genre, even earlier or parallel Genres (i.e.. Age of Fighting Sail, WWI, WWII Surface/Sub Fleet) with the same level of detail.

I'm fond of the old adage that states, "If you build a better Mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door." It's time that developers wake up and realize that people will pay extra for a quality product. Look at any Mercedes/BMW/Ferrari/Porsche/Jaguar/Rolls Royce dealer's price list and then look at the product they offer. There's a reason that the aforementioned vehicles command the pricetag they display...Developers need to stop churning out Yugos and start building the kind of titles that their core customers want...

I hope the analogy fits...

SH5 if i buy it will cost me $120 (collectors ed), about $90 US. we're not all lucky enough to live in the US where prices are lower.

I would pay more if the ultimate sim we want was developed. Im sure alot of people here would. :yeah: but is it enogh people to make this project profitable?

The publishers say that its not! otherwise we would be seeing these amazing sims.

Also you would need to find a publisher (and convincing them that this game would sell) to put the money up front.

Its alot of money and a long time of development with no return on the money!

drm alternative
 

Scrapser is right on. I have a cad program that can only be run by plugging in a hasp into usb slot. Might make game slightly more expensive but would work. My program is six years old and still going.

These are the right kind of questions. Part of what I'm pursuing here is have these questions really been round tabled with some representative developers/publishers or have they remained hypotheticals? We will never know unless the initial research is done. It may turn out there are in fact enough people who would fund such a project.

And let me remind everyone, this is not meant to be a "retail" product...at least not during development. It would be something done almost like a contract that would pay for the end result and not fall into red ink. If afterwards it can be packaged and sold on the retail market then all the better but the point is to get the thing done right.

As things are now it's done backwards. We simmers keep waiting for the next release of Sim X and hope it meets our dreams which so far has always been only a partial fulfillment.