It is not necessary goverment healthcare yet. It is an option for people who take jobs that do not offer health care(I have no idea why they would do that) and others who perhaps run a business making this program affordable for them. Not sure. I did read yesterday that ALL must be on it or get a very stiff fine and or jail time. Really man, all must contribute to enjoy this program. I'm sick of free loaders.

I was with my brother-in-law last night at the market getting formula for his twins. He is behind a customer at the check out and they had two cart loads of food. ALL of it was paid on food stamps. $400.00 worth! They were eating better them me and him. They were dressed nice and wearing expensive leather jackets. They loaded the groceries into a Lexus....WTF? Our system here is for crappy at best.

Would this be Congressman Bachus version (if I remember my crooked politicians correctly)? I believe he proposed to fine individuals and families that didn't obtain health insurance.

This bill is nothing but a bailout for the insurance companies disguised as reform. The only really good thing in it is the mandate to cover pre-existing conditions. The "public option" in this one is weakened in a stupid concession to people who would have never voted yes on this anyways.

The insurance companies are the only winners here.

Golden Rivet, Do you have a source for the above quote please?

The reason I ask is that I use medicare and receive Social Security, and being retired military am also receiving healthcare from a Federal Program that works very well. tnx.

Don

First of - thank you brother for your service.

As for the solvency of Social Security - allow me to send you here:

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/29/news...tune/index.htm

Note its CNN, not some "wacko" Fox link, because some would dismiss out of hand anything that was from there. The author even states how this has been a looming problem for decades. There have been actions to work on its financial standings, which is why the following was published by the Brookings Institute:

http://www.brookings.edu/multimedia/...ity_aaron.aspx

Allow me to quote another article dated 5/15 of this year....

"For years Social Security and Medicare have been saying that they’re running out of money. But, until now, the date of insolvency was years away.

The just-released Social Security trustees report says that Medicare will be spending more than it brings in this year. In less than a decade, the system will have run through all of its savings and be incapable of paying bills."

Thats right - Medicare is running a deficit - THIS YEAR. *That extra 500 Billion coming out in "health care reform" is really gonna help that too huh? As for Social Security, it is projected to hit deficit spending in 2037. Source is:

http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-mo...res-broke/290/

The links themselves will take you to the trustees report if you want to read it yourself.

To say SS is broke right now, isn't entirely accurate, though one could say that of Medicare. Just remember that the trustees oversee both sets of trusts, so they share a common thread.

We could also point to a number of other government overseen programs/institutions that continue to be in the red every year... but I think you get the point. Hopefully this helps you understand the seriousness of the crisis the country faces with the existing debt added to the entitlements that will increase that burden on future generations.

tnx for your reply CaptainHaplo.

Yes, I've read the SS trustee's report before. At my age the year 2037, actuarially speaking, is way beyond my time frame. And yet, contrary to GoldenRivet’s remarks, SS is not “KAPUT”, not yet anyway. Congress has 28 years left to fix it. Congressmen elected in 2006 will have (earned) a nice retirement by then if they stay in office, so I’ll keep my fingers crossed.

Medicare, on the other hand, I’ll agree, is looking shabby. The debate rages on and I believe the problem could be fixed to extend it’s solvency through the elimination of double-dipping by “Medicare Advantage”. It was my understanding that the “Healthcare Bill” currently passed by the house, plans to pay for some and/or all of the costs through money saved from ending “Medicare Advantage”. Like most here, I have not yet read the “bill”. but, while still alive, my RON site will have every other man on alert and weapons facing outward per SOP.

Cheers,

Mookie, did you read the 1900 page bill? I sure didn't. I'm not trying to be funny here but what makes you believe the insurance companies are the winners? I do not follow your logic.

The government has just delivered millions of new customers to the insurance companies by mandating that the uninsured purchase insurance. Oh sure they're being subsidized by the government, but the insurers who are the root of the problem are the end recipients of those government subsidies.

It really doesn't do a whole lot to end the insurance companies stranglehold on our health care system. The public option is so watered down and weak that it doesn't do anything to actually solve any problems. It was done in an attempt to appease Republicans, and now when it doesn't work, they're going to scream "SEE WE TOLD YOU SO!"

It's like solving the homeless problem by passing a law stating that all the homeless people need to buy houses.

Ok, got it. Personally, in my mind Obama is just attempting to create a legacy for himself via this healthcare bill. He does not care if he wins 2012. He does not care about a public option. He will move along in 2012 and write books until he is old and gray. At any rate, that opinion is soley my own. As it stands now Lieberman said he will not vote this bill in. Apparently Lieberman's vote is needed. Just another government snafu!

:o:o:o
Anyone in Gods own country remember the story of the mercifull Samaritan?
Since there was no benifit to themselves, the first people passed by, leaving the poor guy in the dust, till the mercifull Samaritan came by.
Though I'm not particular religious, this story does appeal to me.
Do you really need to benifit yourself to help others?
Do you really need to make a huge profit, if you're a doctor?

I guess, again this is a mentality difference between Europeans and Americans.

Let those doctors who wish to make profit work in the field of plastic surgery, like enlarging boobs, removing fat or reworking faces of Hollywood celebs, which is not lifethreatening demands, and then let the real caring doctors really help all the ill people.

I have but one answer for this....tort cases. Malpractice insurance is just over the top and rightly so when a doctor can be sued at a tip of hat. Imagine, malpractice insurance is over 100k+ per year per doctor. Now, to be sure, some patience are due compensation for wrong doing but by and large most cases are fraud. This is just one part of the system that needs to be fixed.

Hate to break it to you, but being in a family that is made up of about 90% surgeons, Nurses, Anesthesiologists and Hospital Administators... i know a lot of young people both related to me and not related to me who are in the entering college age group who are entering the field of medicine.

they all have the "like to help people" thing going on which is great...

but consistently the number one or number two attractant to the health care industry in these individuals is the high salaries and the rather exceptional quality of life that Doctors and Surgeons and Anesthesiologists are able to live.

I have asked every single one of them... "would you go through with your plans to become a surgeon, digging jars of Jelly out of an obese man's anus (true) or digging into the guts of an aids infected patient if the pie in the sky salary drastically dropped down to $100K or less?"

UNIVERSALLY the answer was not no...

it was HELL NO.

when you start fining health care providers for providing health care, and when you start pressing the sorts of taxes and fines etc on the health care system you WILL see roving salary reductions... that is a FACT as plain as day... when these administrators start having to pay more out to the federal government and start having to take on the sort of health care structure the president is pushing - extra money will have to come from somewhere... and that WILL be the employees of the hospital from top to bottom pay cuts are just a fact of the health care package.

this is the opinion of every doctor, every nurse, every physical therapist, every anesthesiologists and every hospital administrator i have had the privilege of discussing this issue with.


If it were up to the truly selfless people of the world to provide all the health care... the line into all three hospitals in the world would be hundreds of miles long.

Yep, being an ER physician all his life, my dad can hardly walk now with all the walking he did on 12 hour shifts 4 night straight every week in the ER. Telling parents their child has died. Telling elderly that their spouse has died. Keeping half living bodies alive in the ER until surgeons can arrive. For a better part of my childhood he worked all the holidays. That crap takes it toll. I certainly would not do it for minimum wage. No sir. I have seen first hand what it did to my dad. My sister is a nurse and she worked in geriatric. She is out of it now. The elderly who were ignored by their family as they passed their waining days in the old folks home got to her mentally. Especially when Monday she is talking to them and come Tuesday the person is dead. Not my cup of tea for $7.50/hour and all the lawsuits you can swallow.

AVG is correct.

both of my parents routinely sleep in a hospital lounge, or call room 3 or 4 nights per week waiting for trauma cases to come in.

My mother routinely has to tell parents that their child is dead, or that the father of the family has been killed in a wreck.

i would estimate her annual salary to be $250K

in her words... its still not enough money to deal with the psychological and physiological stress day in and day out.

The president's bill will gain no sympathy from me... it is another case of a big wig wanting more for less.

This is going to kill a lot of careers on Capital Hill and will probably kill this bill. To me, this is probably the largest issue of all concerning this bill.


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/abort...ory?id=9034995

Sadly, with this and all the bailouts Obama is effectivly intruding in our lives. He is intruding more than any president that went before. Soon government will have ownership in all and done so with our tax dollars. :down:

My wife & I would like to thank those of you in this thread who are against this bill for your unstinting opposition to it. She, at slightly less than my 61 years, fell down the stairs of our apartment just short of 4 months ago but has yet to receive any form of treatment for the agonising pain she is in - save for the nightly heat packs I apply to her arm, shoulder and hip. We do not know what damage has been done, nor will we ever, as we cannot afford private health insurance.

In May of this year, I began passing blood along with my urine. I do not know why this happened or if it is anything "serious", nor am I likely ever to do so as long as insurance companies charge premiums that exceed the amount of disposable income we have available to us.

Whilst I feel genuine sympathy for the plight of the mother of one of the contributors to the thread, who receives a pitiable $250k for her emotionally painful duty to inform parents of the death of their child, my sympathy is tempered by the knowledge that that figure is slightly over eleven (11) times the income my wife and I exist on. I will make the assumption that she also receives medical insurance through her employer.

My wife endured the emotionally distressing procedure of an hysterectomy just over four years ago. We are still paying-off that bill, which is bad enough in itself, what is really galling is that the amount still owing is only $1000 less than the original bill. After four years.

Yes. It is truly heartwarming to see that there are so many people who oppose anything at all if it means rubbing their political fur the wrong way, or possibly adding a few dollars to their taxes or removing a few more from multi-billion dollar "industries" (I remember when they used to call themselves "services", but any idea of serving the public vanished decades ago). Thank you all for playing your part in ensuring that both our lives will continue to be lived with fear of contracting an illness, or meeting with an accident, or simply of getting even older.

Thank you one and all.

In case someone missed it, I think KeybdFlyer is being sarcastic.:D

Sacastic or not, medschool is not free and goes far beyond just the 4 years in college. Malpractic insurance is not cheap. I guess he did not look into that. Mentally, medicine takes it toll on doctor/nurse, physically as well. Just like cops, they get to work the the real cream of the crop. What, does every Tom, Dick and Harry show up in the ER with a boo boo? Lets try broken bodies from accidents. Gunshot wounds to the head. Raped women and girls. In short go spend a 12 hour shift in the ER and experience it. When an old man is pronounced dead in front of you what a doctor does takes on a whole new meaning. Until one experiences what goes on in the ER they have very little room to comment. George Clooney getting banged on a gurney is not how it is. :03:

BTW, it is not rubbing the fur in the wrong way. It is more freeloading that will happen. You nailed it on the head, a few dollars each week. Fine, works for me. If you do not contribute you do not get treatment but ya know what, that ain't gonna happen. I pay my premium and a few dollars for Tom, Dick and Harry.....add anyone else who does not wish to contribute on top of that. This is how it will work. It is a crap bill set up by a friggin house mom by the name of Pelosi. Get real.

No sarcasim!

My sympathies to you and your situation. This is precisely the sort of thing that I cannot believe happens in our country every day. It's not fair and its not right.