Do these AI Uboats have to 'exist'?

The imagination would be good enough for me.

Let the AI radio a convoy and when I'm close and in position I send my ok and the wolfpack leader orders to attack.

Or I radio the convoy position and have to shadow it. After a while I get response of two comrades at the other side of the convoy to be in position and I start the attack.

The convoy has some random chosen ships with 'torpedo damage function' - they'll be hit by 'magnetic eels of the imaginary comrades'.
Two DDs leave the screen and start to DC an area somewhere on the other side of the convoy...

I even scripted a single player mission like that (U42 Wolfpack) back in 2005. :DL

Problem is depth-sounding is done with active sonar. An AI sub taking a depth reading regularly would alert any escorts in the area. ;)

I think it's a more realistic expectation to have wolfpacks in multiplayer only, I just don't think any AI is capable of effectively commanding a sub. :hmmm:

ia mnot very optimistic for seeing wolfpacks. the question for me is: why they didnt present it on the first feature list?

Maybe they´re working on wolfpack AI but aren´t sure they get it done on time and so the feature isn´t listed yet... Stay optimistic.
The only thing we can do is begging UBI and the devs for wolfpack AI.
I would even accept another release date if necessary.

I don't know why you think some kind of mystical intelligence is needed by the AI to run effectively. The game knows the depth of the ocean at any given point, that's part of the game after all, and anything the game knows can also be shared with the various entities inside the game. AI subs wouldn't have to be constantly pinging the seabed to know these things, they could just know.

Why? The AI can quite easily command the various surface veseels. The problem is not and (I suspect) has never been AI routines, but rather with certain hard coded issuse - like spawning torpedo entities which always head North. (Or was it South?)

You're missing the point; AI knowing the depth at any time is not simulating, and it's a sim after all. Btw it was a response to the mechanic proposed by JU_88. You're taking it out of contest.

Still; fair enough. Dangerous Waters has AI subs, for example. :hmmm:

*tbh, all I'm saying is don't expect it, but consider it a bonus if it's there. imho it's about realistic expectations, since any dicussion is besides the point untill we have confirmation whether or not wolfpacks are included.

Yes they need to actually exist :DL just like all the other units actually exist. If you are prepared to go down the 'imagination' route where do you stop?
Would you be ok if they scrapped aircraft or destoyers and we just 'imagined' there were there instead?

If I want some imagination, Ill just switch off the PC, sit in a dark corner 'imagining' being a Uboat comander :-?.

Come now, it not as if an AI sub has never been done before, as i said - far more complex thing have been coded than this, Ai subs need not be much more complicated that Ai for an aircraft in a flight sim.

In reply to your first point, I wasnt suggesting for a second that the Sub actually 'pings' the ocean floor. All that matters is that it can determine the depth. Just an aircraft can determine where the ground is with out needing to physically do anything special.

As you say above DW has AI subs, it is NOT an unrealistic expectation at all.
It is no more unrealistic than expecting a full 3d sub interior with crew going about their business. - that would have been much harder to code than a poxy AI sub.
(And they have managed that just fine.)

If not enough people support the inclusion of Wolf packs for SHV - or say they dont care - then no, the devs definatley wont bother....

Airplanes, or rather pilots, can see the ground, subs/captains can't see the bottom. For a (AI) sub to determine depth, without cheating, it needs to use active sonar for depth sounding.

Why do people want wolfpacks/AI subs, but don't want them properly simulated? Is it more important to have wolfpacks/AI subs than an authentic, realistic simulation?

Yes, I'd like to see wolfpacks, all I'm saying is don't get your hopes up untill we have some official word. If it's really that simply as people suggest, they would have been there already.

Dont matter if the Ai subs 'cheat' to determine depth,
The Escort/merchent AI cheats all the time anyway,
One example is that they can see you though land mass, and look at the speed at which they can 'stop' or accelarate when they need to avoid collision :)
Anyone remember the AIs 'Vampire vision' at night?

It doesn't need to be perfect, just so long as its THERE and works to a reasonable level.
- if need be modders can tweak it.

Id rather have AI subs that crash in to the ocean floor at shallow depths - than none at all.
At least you will get to see them working properly far out to sea (where the player will mostly be operating anyway.)

yes, for an accurate depth determination, but don't forget we've got nav maps. If I see on my nav map I'm in shallow waters I don't set my depth to 300 m. So if we can guesstimate the depth ourselves, why would it be cheating if an AI sub did the same thing?

Besides I don't think it would be that hard to code. We've got controllers for merchants/DD's/BB's etc. already, take one of those and add a depth controller, e.g. as soon as the AI sub can pick up enemy sonar it dives to 200 m, when the AI can't hear any more ships on its hydrophones it resurfaces.

nah, I don't think this is a big problem. They can spawn DC's and shells all heading into the right direction so why would it be so hard to do the same thing with torpedoes? calculating a right solution would be the only problem, but since the game has got code already for doing this for the player sub this shouldn't be too hard to overcome either.
Besides, I already solved the problem of AI launched torpedoes always heading north. check this thread: http://subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=154068. don't expect a wunderwaffe but at least they don't head north.

The good old Aces of the Deep showed that it could not be so hard to program Ai-wolfpacks.

The gameplay of Aces and the graphics of SH3/4 and no bugs , that would be the ideal game for me.

One more thing, for those players who are concerned that AI Uboats (Wolfpacks) will steal or deprive them of there kills, just consider this:

On the flip side, while the escorts are off depth charging an AI uboat - 3 km way, they will leave YOU to attack the unattended merchents while they are otherwise occupied. Not to mention that the AI Uboats might also take out an escort or two for themselves...:DL

Think possitive!

If we beg, plead, harass, threaten, and then cut open our bellies then perhaps they might add this feature. :)

Alright. Its the perfectionist in me that drives me to expect perfection. When scripting an airstrike in Arma for example, I dont spawn a plane in mid-air, have it fly over the target and then spawn a bomb on target. I put a plane in the mission at an airstrip, have it take off and make an actual bombing run at the target. Sure, its the end result that matters, but I dont consider shortcuts and AI cheating a good approach to solving a problem.

Better something flawed that works than something perfect that doesnt, I guess. :hmmm:

Ah cool, your an ArmA man, Respect!:salute:
I just finished the Harvest red Campaign in ArmA II, buggy as hell but the Manhatten mission was awesome, hope they patch it up properly though:D

Sorry for going OT....

This idea sounds the best to me. Why tax the system with complex A.I. when the end result (distracted DD's) is what we want?

Really.....and the response about imagination I dont think fits here because as a U-boat captain I would never really see or physically interact with my fellow U-boats in a wolfpack. All I am interested in is that there is SOME way to distract a portion of the screen so I can find a hole to attack. With respect to programming investment this makes the most sense to me.

Well, i disagree (of course)
I gotta say that on the face of it, this sounds like it would actually be just as complicated as just giving some AI routines to Submarines - yet it would be no where near as good.:oops:

Might as well port the Virtual torpeedo mod instead, I feel that would actually offer better solution than the above suggestion - sorry. ;)

I never played AOTD, but if that game, 15 years or so old now, could do something passable in that area no reason why Ubi couldn't do it now.

Let's see, basic functions needed for an effective sub AI:

1. Determine the safe maximum diving depth (as determined by the local depth as well as the sub's crush depth)-despite all the concerns put forth in this thread should be a piece of cake.

2. Determine when to dive (attacked by enemy-later in the war staying submerged and snorting occasionally to avoid planes).

3. Have several attack plans in place to choose from, depending on enemy force composition. This is likely the trickiest, as they would have to be "taught" how to infiltrate an escort screen, not something which is easy and obvious to do. Would include night surface attack functionality as well as using the deck gun vs. defenseless ships.

4. Firing torps accurately. Since this is mainly all about number crunching, should be easy to do. Includes deciding on salvo size. Perhaps, to compensate for #3, they (at least some 'ace' boats) can be super accurate, allowing shots from farther away (i.e. outside the screen).

5. Minor things, like knowing when you are bingo on fuel and have to RTB. If actually part of a wolfpack, knowing your place in the picket line as per BDU's orders.

Compared to the AI needed for like flight sims and such, I don't see anything which would be a bear to code, with like I said the possible exception of #3.

People, try to be realistic. Creating such complex A.I. as one that needs to control the wolfpack submarine _properly_ -- seem to be a very hard (impossible?) task. Such algorithm must act like a human mind in many cases.

I'll be more than glad if developers implement an imitation of wolfpack activity (random radio broadcasts, chance to meet a vessel that was damaged by another u-boat, etc).

Me thinks we need stop comparing a Uboat under AI control to that of one under Human control.
We know its not going to be the same.
But it is workable and its is not unrealistic to expect a sub to be able to attack something.
Yes, expecting it shaddow a convoy and co-ordinate properly would be a lot to expect - I agree
But not for it to simply shoot at a target and then 'evade' that is all.

It is better than nothing, and better than so called 'imaginary wolfpacks' (*shudders in horror at the thought*)
It would also allow for encounters with enemy subs which would be a nice bonus.

We are not asking for the moon on stick here.