My greatest worry is not Mikhayl's usual and forseeable lament, but that while Israeli generals recommend to press on, Olmert, Livny and Barak could decide to prematurely stop the fight to serve their three very different political tactical calculations for the coming Israeli elections, where they are effectively rivals. If they stop the war now just because they think they can improve their chances that way, heaven and hell should slay them with thunderbolts and hailstorm for this waste of opportunity, destruction and military operation. Since Gaza is an isolated, limited place, Hamas could be slain inside it of it to a wide degree, it could be delivered very painful losses - and this is what counts: killing Hamas members by as high scores as possible. And the war should be carried on until Hamas is either dead or begs for surrender on its knees. Inside Gaza, this could be acchieved, since they have no unlimited ressources and no unlimited space to manouver and ressupply. So, this war indeed is a good chance to deliver Hamas a crippling blow and reduce it's stockpiles in weapons, ammo, and active personnell deciselvly. If by that the daily rocket terror that is haunting Israel day by day since eight years could be interrupted for some years to come and many Hamas terrorists could be killed, it was worth it. Election interests of Israeli political rivals should not be allowed to interfere with this. After Hamas has been seriously crippled, it also is imporant to get the Egyptians engaged in seriously sealing off the borders to Gaza and controlling them against weapons smuggling. A weak Hamas may help in getting them into the boat. so far they are hesitent, because common advise is to not getting engaged with Palestinian affairs: it's always getting a pain in the ###. Mikhayl probably will not like such a determined stand like I advocate. But thankfully his influence on the situation is extremely limited. We could all agree on this minimum (at least I assume): the earlier it is guaranteed that the daily rocket terror of Hamas could not be continued, the earlier aid and relief, food and medication, fuel and civilian goods could be brought into Gaza again. just a declaration of Hamas is not good enough for such a guarantee - their goal was and still is to kill Israelis and to destroy Israel - that limits the objects for negotiations considerably, one should think.

Calling over 7 million people a "stain on the surface of the Earth" is a bit extreme don't you think?

Is that your final solution?

Well, either one accepts evolution or one does not.
The ultimate decline of evolution is the reverse to previous state.
And what would the ultimate previous state be?

All people would have to go back to where they came from, and not only individuals but also as nations.

Just try to imagine that: all white people out of America, Australia and Africa. All black people back to Africa. All Arabs back to the peninsula. Russians out of Asian Russia. And that's just the big picture. Then nationalities must be divided. Maybe DNA research can set our origins.

Seriously: let's all go to the sea and drown ourselves. We arose from the sea as small amoebas. That's the ultimate goal for reverse history and besides it suits naval simmers well, now doesn't it? ;)

Hey, their hot when their young, they just don't age gracefuly. So enjoy the eye candy.:up:

That is the difference between you and me: I see the difference between victim and perpetrator, you declare the victim to be as evil as the perpetrator, and reject Israel's right to exist. I would maybe argue in the same direction if the founding of Israel would be just two or three years ago in the past, and as a matter of fact I have repeatedly done that in past threads, but it is over two generations now - and this is what changes it all. It already has existed all too long now as that you could reverse history without committing again big injustice against innocent people not responsible for Israel's existence and the way it was brought into life. That's why I accept Israel's right to exist as a state - not doing so would kick another millions of people who had been born after 1947 into homelessness. If that is being called wrong for 1947, it cannot be any less wrong today, so why repeat the same mistake.

You may call that wrong or evil or whatever - but all history has been formed like this - including the forming-up of today's French and German states over the past 1000 years. Both today's nations are founded on an ocean of blood and suffering. After some time, chnages and what is new - become normality and the new norm the world now is focussing on. Demands for Israel'S dismantling are as much wanted as calls for a Great Serbia or a return of the Roman Empire. In the end, the territory of today'S Israel has been fought over and has seen bloodshed for millenias, they already had wars for it before the Romans came - and installed an enforced relative state of ceize-fire. The Palestinian's claim for it historically makes not more and not less sense than that of Israel today.

I also insist on seeing the difference in intentionally killing civilians of the other side and hiding amongst one's own civilians in order to provoke their death for scoring points in the propaganda war, and aiming at militants and trying to avoid civilian killings, but needing to accept them if the target does not keep separate from them. Maybe for you both intentions are the same. But that speaks not against Israel, but against you.

That hundreds of thousands of Israelis are expected to live under daily fear, living in a constant state of alarm 24/7, 12 months a year - we do not hear the UN, and France complaining about, just naive daydreamings. After all nobody gives a damn for Israelis suffering as long as they remain silent and keep their lips closed - as they are expected so that the West can carry on with his appeasement of Islam, last but not least at home. Killed Jews yelling in agony just disturb the global selfdeception of peace and multicultural tolerance.

However, the dispute between Israel and Palestinians is mostly a demographic one anyway, despite their miserable living conditions, Palestinians are breeding like rabbits, since they see this as their primary weapon to mount pressure on Israel. This is not only cynical (but typical for Islamic thinking since Muhammad himself, who also called for women to create many children so that there are more Muslim warriors), but possibly the factor that will eventually drop Israel into a state of civil war and rip it apart from within in some decades. I'm sure you are looking forward to it.

Have they also filed a lawsuit about Hamas firing missiles into civilian places in an attempt to target and kill civilians? No? I see. Commiting murder and terror is okay. Trying to fight off terrorists in self-defence who are striking like this - is unforgivable. Always be balanced, always see both sides. If you accuse the perpetrator, you also have to accuse the victim to show that you are not biased.

With reference to using civilians as cover, remember that it wasn't so long ago that the Israeli Army appealed a ban on their use of Palestinianhuman shields.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm

The Palestinians started this round (again), and provoked for years. A simple but true fact you comfortably prefer to ignore. Israel has learned its lesson from Lebanon 2006, and does not allow Hamas to become as strong as Hesbollah has been - that's why they are so unforgiving today: to prevent Hamas becoming like that. When the Israelis ended occupation and left, the new "freedom" was used to immediately start terror strikes from these once occupied grounds again, and on a daily basis. When terrorists come under pressure, they start talking of a seize-fire, to rearm. when they feel strong enough again, they start launching missiles into civilian crowds and areas again. Israel at lkeast gives three short hours of relief per day, knowing that this also helps Hamas. Hamas during these three hours continues striking, hoping to provoke retaliation that would cost Israel in the propaganda war. - - - Palestinians have, since years, the choice not to waste their small money for weapons and supporting extremism and buying ammo and explosives, but to invest in infrastructure, schools, agriculture - but they choose to channel a huge ammount of their already small money into terrorism. You do not care for that, too. I must note that in my book: terrorism against "zionism" is allowed, undiscriminatory murder is acceptable if committed in the name of anti-zionism. Honstely said, until today I do not even know precisely how to define zionism (and I met Israelis in Egypt who couldn't either), not to mention: supporting it. - - - If Palestinians started this all and provoked and terrorised, and lives really have to be lost, then I prefer Palestinian lives being taken for they are the ones respoinsible for this latest conflict, not that of the targetted Israeli population. Again, Mikhayl: you comfortably chose not to see the difference between victim and perpetrator, declare the citim guilty as hell, and relabel self-defence as a war of aggression becasue the victim'S defence is effective and stronger than the attacker'S aggression. You are most confused - and very ideologically biased. But hey, being anti-Israel is en vogue today (as if it ever has been different). seen that way you are a major representation of a general European attitude anyway. And France as a political - has a long history of being pro-Arabic and anti-Israel anyway. Probably a bad conscience for it'S colonial past it tries to overcompensate for - who knows...

Um, Hamas stopped rocket fire during the truce, which was broken by an Israeli strike on November 4th against Hamas.

Islamic Jihad continued low-scale rocket fire, and there were several unattributed rockets. But ths war in Gaza is specifically against Hamas, who had ceased rocket fire until attacked by Israel.
From wikipedia - As of 12 January 2009, 13 Israelis (including 3 civilians) and 905 Palestinians (including 333 women and children) are estimated to have been killed in the conflict.

If no palestinian rockets wpould constantly fly since 8 years, on a daily basis, there would be no 900+ Palestinians dead today. But they let them fly, and so see their situation worstening.

And I cannot say it is undeserved. If you have to live under constant fear to be struck by a missle, day by day, anytime around the clock, for years, then you become ill, and your life becomes miserable. It is the most natural thing in the world that sooner or later you wish to strike back and commit the needed ammount of destruction to the side doing this to you, that is needed to make it stop terrorising you all day long. hus it is better to see 900 palestinains dead, than 900 Israelis. I will not complain to fate that the Palestinian missiles did not do more harm. and if the palestinians still have no better missiles - I wonder why they are provoking so much for a fight until they got what they called for, for years. That is not clever, to put it mildly. What else can the intention be to force Israel to kill Palestinians in order to raise global opinion against Israel and score a strategic PR victory by sacrificing your own ethnic comrades? It remindsof Russian officer in world war two around stalingrad, who forced their troops with weapons to strm uselessly into German MG fire and get killed and shot ever russian not storming forward anymore. It was already disgusting with these russian soldiers 8although in the end the battle got won, hat horrific costs). It is even more disgusting if it is no soldiers of your side you sacrifice, but your own people's mothers, old, and children.

Of course, Israel gets blamed for it.The cynical Hamas tactic works very well with caring, sensible Westerners. THAT'S WHY THEY RUN THIS TACTIC, AND NO OTHER.

So the arab conquest of the holy land was a natural migration? Later on the crusades - were they natural? When Israel was created, Jews were allready living in the area. Most Jews world wide just wanted to go back to where their ancestors lived and live in the newly created declared Jewish state.
When the slaves of USA was liberated after the civil war in 1865, may of them wished to return to Africa. And a new country was set up for them, Liberia. It felt natural for them at the time.
The palestinians, well, they are in fact just remains of arab conquest settlers. And now they have lived for hundred of years in the area, so yes of course it feels natural for them to live there.
You cannot just sit and declare one side natural and then the other side unnatural. It doesn't work.

I disagree, I doubt history will be harsh against Israel. But noone of any of us can tell, now can we. The average age is about 75 years, so in average we may have 30-50 years back to see what happens. Since we have had this situation for about a lifetime now, I have little doubt that in 50 years we'll still have status quo.

Cut in two by history, well, go ask the Russian in the Kaliningrad area, what they think. They're cut of from mother Russia as well, and they live with it, because of peaceful agreements.

If the single state should arise, then most likely, it will be Israelean, with Palestinians permitted to live on Israelean soil. USA would never allow the opposite.
But about current situation, then there's also the chance that Gaza cease to exist as Arab territory. The Gaza people would then have the choice of being Israelean citizen (unlikely) or move to the West Bank (being Fatah area probably also unlikely).

No, there was a cease-fire, the number of rockets fired dropped massively.

"Rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between Jun 18 and Nov 4 in comparison with the four and half months preceding the ceasefire. Over 1,894 rockets were fired into Israel from Feb to Jun 18, 2008 and 37 were fired between Jun 18 and the beginning of November."


Miserable? How about "dead".

The "needed" amount of destruction? Do you really think that Israels actions in Gaza are going to produce less anger from Palestinians? Surely you understand this.
What exactly is the needed amount?

These rocket attacks began after an Israeli strike in Gaza, in violation of the truce.
Even if Hamas are playing this game you have hypothesised, there is noreason for Israel to play along. It would be a monumentally stupid move on their part, even more so than the current bloody war.

Again, why does Israel have to play along? Surely they are smarter than to play into the hands of such a *seemingly* obvious ploy.

A map highighting the vast lands occupied by Muslims, vs the single, miniscule Jewish state
http://www.masada2000.org/isr-world.gif


I think it's sad that people won't allow the Jews even the tiniest portion of their ancestral home. Talk about extremists.

Neal, it isn't a Muslim vs. Jewish issue, it concerns the actions of Israel in Gaza over the last two weeks.

The fact that more area of the worlds surface is occupied by mostly-Muslim populations is of little comfort to the dead of Gaza.

The issue is very simple, Tchocky. You asked what is the needed ammount of destruction to acchieve that Palestinians do not terrorise Israel with missile attacks. the answer is: the ammount of destruction and killing and suffering that accieves to stop them committing such action. Currently, obviously their pain and suffering still is not big enough, and Hamas still feels confident to occasionally fire back with missiles. Well, keep on bombing them then, and strike them harder. the place is limited in size, the place is isolated, nothing gets in or out - sooner or later they will have had enough, since they are not in supply, and have no safe haven to go. hezbollah in Lebanon had plenty of open range to use, and open supply lines - the Palestinians in Gaza have not. They cannot hold out forever. So: press on until they break, it is only a question of time. If that costs the lives of their civilians: well, then why did they start it. Neither Israel nor anyone else did ask them for it.

If you minimise what it means to live in constant fear of the next alarm, like many thousands of Israeli families do since many years, then you never have experienced violent force directly yourself, and I do not speak of a small backyard rumble from your juvenile years, but bombs and collapsing structures and blood and bodyparts laying on the street. Well, I never was fighting in a war, thankfully, but I have experienced this, both in berlin and then out of the blue, and then again saw the scene of such action in Algeria and Turkey, and it is not a pleasant thing. Only somebody not knowing such experiences and sights could recommend to tolerate them in the name of some abstract ideals of peace and coexistence. If explosions go up and bullets fly and a house front comes down, then it is only the next moment you worry about, and all ideals and ideas go immediately out of the window - even yours. Make that fear for the next attack a constant state of life, and you have a mind in desperation, depression, making people sick and ill. Such things cannot be tolerated. That's why I give Israel any right there is to do anything needed to stop such things committed by Palestinians. I even give them the right to sink all hellhole of Gaza in the ocean if Palestinians do not stop terrorising their families in their homes.

If such action increases Palestinians anger, or Arabs anger, or Muslims anger, is unimportant.They are angered anyway, if not over this, then over something different the bad bad West has done to them poor poor fellas, so why worry. It is not their arab brothers helping and financing them so that they do not starve in Gaza - it is the EU for the most, and the UN second. Just for the record.

and that Hamas has inferior missiles only, compared to Hezbollah for example: well, after Lebanon 2006 Hamas took Hezbollah as an example it tried to follow, trying to copy them. It seems that Israel has a.) adapted to this in chnaged military tactics, and b.) was not willing to wait until Hamas also stockpiled as lethal weapons and missiles as that of Hezbollah, which even fielded hightech ATGMs like the Franco-German Milan and the latest reincarnations of RPG-7 (which are said to be tough enough to even threaten Abrams armour, we know from Iraq). The range of terror missiles by which they struck Israel, constantly increases. That they are not precise for the most does not mean to be an argument, they fire them nevertheless, which means a.) they do not care and certainly hope to kill civilians - and b.) that they are stupid to provoke Israel if such are their weapons. It is about propaganda scores again, and palestinians in the end killing Palestinioans to blame Israel for it. Also, these missiles, whether they hit their target or not, by intention are targetted at civilian settlements. Two days ago, an asylum for old people got hit, I remember. Consider the missile to be a bigger one, and we would not talk about being lucky in getting struck, but maybe dozens dead. Is that what you are waiting for? I hope not.

Nobody can seriously expect Israel to wait until things have gotten that bad, before it decides to do something about the threat. That is no pro-zionism. That is no mere sympathy or a German guilt-complex towards Israel when I say that. It simply is a normal reaction to provoking action, it simply is common sense.

They shoot at you? You shoot back until either they cannot shoot anymore, or are dead. Very simple.

Stop judging war by standards of peacetime and order. War is neither a decreased state of peace, nor reduced order, but the absence of both, the antithesis. trying to judge war by standards of peace morals, is illogical and absurd, it makes completely no sense and just leads to confusion about the nature of war and how to keep it rare in happening, and short in action, and victorious in outcome. Once the state of war has ended, you can judge life by the standards of peace and order again. War you have to assess by the standards of war only. Seen that way, there is no such thing like "horrific wars", because that is already inclusive part of the definition, and there cannot be such a thing like a "non-horrific war", that is like "non-fluid liquid". the only thing making sense is to say that "war is horrific", if you get the nuance.

and if you don't want war, for wars are horrific, then better don't provoke your neighbour until he has enough of you and launches one against you, in order to get rid of your provocations. Keep on killing his nerves and deplreting his patience, and expect to get struck sooner or later. What is so difficult in understanding that simple truth.

Okay, time for me to move on. No further comments from me on the Gaza war.

Good point! It is about the size of Jersey. I think the Palestinians simply cannot stand the fact that Israel actually did something productive with the land rather than living like desert rats.

Be more specific on wich educated Palestinians your talking about. The one who live in europe maybe :-?. Sorry i didn`t get your message.

LOL :rotfl:

That video was no mistake!
It is just a commercial for what is awaiting the Hamas warriors in Djanna! :lol:

Cheers,
Michael

After posting my last one, there was a 5 minute TV news on German-Austrian-Swiss "3SAT"-Program, in their magazin "Kulturzeit". It is no spectacular news, but has two interesting short notes. Filmed by a Palestinian cameraman working for German first television program "ARD" (one of our two public major stations), they said that like most others they need to depend on Palestinian reporters with whom they cooperate, and who live under constant threat to get sacked by Hamas, since Hamas wants to prevent independant reports from Gaza like Israel prevents foreign reporters going into Gaza.

What is stunning in all material we get from the focus of all censorship, Gaza, is that you never see Hamas people, no fighters, no weapons, and no killed Hamas people. What you see instead is plenty of children, big brown, tearful eyes like that from deer in a searchlight, and crying women.

http://mediathek.daserste.de/daserst...d=&goto=1&show=

At 00:00:40 you see two men walking down the street. I saw it in big format on TV screen, they are dressed like civlians, but carry weapons, assault rifles, under their coats. Original comment:

"And here, for the first time one can see Islamic fighters. their weapons they carry under their cloathes, one can see that very clearly. They are disguised as civilians. This fact leaves questions emerging. That there are civilian casualties is beyond doubt, that the suffering is huge is clear also - but are all "civilian casualties" really always civilian casualties...?"

And at 00:02:05, when they let the Palestinian cameraman speak, who works for the german ARD channel and created the film material, he says (while filmed by his son):

"Ist also a bad thing that we (his family and himself) are living in a multistory building. Many journalists live inside here. I am afraid that somebody abuses this circumstance, climbs on the roof, and from there opens fire at the Israelis - and after that the Israelis bomb this house."

This was filmed and said in the evening, 21:00 local time, with Israeli frontline just some 300 meters away. Next early morning the family fled.

Now, this really was my last comment on the issue now.

I disagree, it is very much a Mulsim vs Jewish issue, always has been. The Muslims are in solidarity on this and remind us about it constantly. And as I said, with the Muslims occupying so many, many acres of land, they should back off and allow the Jews to keep their tiny strip. If they did allow this, there would be no dead in Gaza. You make it sound like the Israelis are looking for a war. That's not the case at all. Someone shoots a rocket in my yard, I want the US Marines to go in and straighten it out.

That doesn't make sense to me. The palestinans and arabs already have massive amounts of land they call their own. The Jews are merely minorities in countries populated by others. They want to have a homeland, and after the way they were massacred in WWII, I don't blame them.

Anyway, if it would solve the issue, send the palestians to Texas, we'll give them a few million acres and they will love the food.