Remember that the government bailed GM out once in 1979. There was a big gas crisis that makes our recent troubles look like nothing. What did GM do to itself to bring on the 1979 bailout? They made huge hooptie gas guzzlers. The same thing they did this time. When people wanted hybrids what did they give us? Hummers that got 10 miles to the gallon. After the free market threatens to put them in the grave again, they want more money? They did not learn their lesson in 1979 obviously. Why bail them out again? So they can just run things into the ground and let the tax payers foot the bill? Where is the incentive to run a good business? I would run my business sloppy if I knew the governement would bail me out.

As for unions, well they aren't the problem in my opinion. Sure, you could pay them all minimum wage. That would be good for business. However everytime the republicans let corporations take a huge steamy dump on the voters under the banner of "deregulation" we get a democratic president. Clinton came into power under a bad economy, so did Obama. Destroying the workers lives for corporate profit isn't a viable solution.

You are correct in your first paragraph which is my point, more good money after bad. Like I posted a few back, GM was given billions to make a car with new energy saving tech....we got nothing. So, screw the bail out. As far as the union, I have seen more unions break a company then make a company. 'nough said. How are we destroying workers lives at the plants? They have more benefits than I have fingers. They have a pay scale far and above a lot of American yet these people out side of the plant scrimping by are to pay for $41000.00 vehicles? Just like me! So, tell me, how many hybrid Toyotas are really out there to choose from? It ain't about hybrids. It is about looks and quality. GM has ugly cars and the quality stopped around 1973. GM has the hybrids and gas sippers like the Cavalier...they are just ugly and not very dependable. Poor quality with dog butt ugly looks=lost business.

Gentlemen:
I do not advocate the bailout. That said, they [GM] goes belly up and worse yet the suppliers to GM fall with that too [domino effect] promptly.

That means looking in the "BIG" picture 1 or 2 Americans no longer have a job from the ripple effect over TIME ... not over night, just over a period of time. Pay now, or pay later - which one you want?

These endless RANTS of who is at fault, and they should have had an electric car/vehicle will NOT solve the problem overnight.

I have two credit cards. Neither one EVER had a balance due that I could not meet over 25+ years and if, I came short to make ends meet, I owed the company less than $1,000 bucks - happened two or three times and I paid off my debt the next month - happens to all of us.

That said, TOO MANY people live day-by-day high off the hog of owing money and it has caught up with us - the MILLIONS of people living financially beyond their means is SICKENING [credit cards, 2nd mortgage, home equity loans, etc].

Glad to see it happen, but those folks that have lived for years not paying down their debt are killing ALL of us now.

I have less than 4 years to pay off my house with payments around $250/month and I watch it's value go down the tubes - like all of us.

Stop living high off the hog, financially speaking.

$PAY$ your bills.

To both of you guys: (Bewolf i assume you mean mid size sedan?)
The last GM product I had was a 1996 Buick Century. I put 300 thousand miles on it over a period of 4 years with very little maintenance. Nothing flashy but certainly a very dependable vehicle.

The main problem with this issue is timing.

Right now is a bad time to let any big companies fail. From what I've read 1 out of 10 jobs in America would suffer if the big three go down. (I don't know that for a fact because I'm just not that smart.)

It's not just the manufacturing plant and the people building the car. All the way from the guys who mine the ore to make the metal, the steel mills, the tire makers, all the suppliers for all of the different components, the dealership and beyond, those peoples jobs would also be in danger

If I was "the decider" sitting there with my thumb up my arse right now, and someone told me we need 25b dollars so 10% of Americans don't lose their jobs of the next six months, I'd write the damn check, quickly.



It should not be up to the people or government to have to bail out companies [in any sector] because they made bad decisions.

I do agree that it's the companies that made mistakes that eventually contributed to the situation. If they could each make at least one car with the gas mileage and quality of a Honda or Toyota then there wouldn't be as much of a problem (maybe).

I agree that the unions are a big ball and chain dragging them down making them less competitive. Still it's no excuse for the other problems they could solve.

The car companies are in part suffering because of the economic crisis and the overall state of the economy. It's this reason and the 10% of the jobs, I say help them out for now. Make it a loan. Make them pay it back in cars if they have to.

One other thing I'd add to the check. Cash this and you agree that no one person in your company can receive compensation above $255,000 year. Why 255? So they can reap the rewards of Obama's new tax plan. :)



Side note: Place part of the blame with the American car buyer as well. Drive down any US highway today and what do you see. SUV's, pickups, crossovers, huge gas guzzlers, and a few Japanese hybrids.

There's people there driving 4x4 4door longbed pickups to work every day. The only time the truck sees any offroad activity is when someone backs over the planter while leaving the driveway. In part, we did this to ourselves. If we didn't buy the big piles of crap, they wouldn't make them.

I agree with you about trucks when it comes to city dwellers and even most suburbanites, but for country folks it's a very different story. Trucks are almost mandatory. Even I find that my old dodge pickup is so useful as a general hauler up at my place in Maine that i've kept it on the road as a 2nd vehicle. Whether its hauling firewood or trash or building materials, none of that could be done in the glorified rollerskates that the social engineers want to shoe horn us all into.

I don't think it's a hybrid or SUV issue. Honestly I think everyone who wants what they are making has one. The market is flooded and I don't think the demand is there like it used to be. My car is older, so what? The market just doesn't need 100,000 new cars every 24 hours.

I had a Toyota Camry once. When a lady in a white Acura killed it, there were 397,000 miles on the odometer. The only issues I had with the vehicle were front end problems that would not have occurred had I not been an invincible teenager, and the alternator went out.

After her demise, I acquired a Ford of equal age that had undergone much more extensive maintenance and had been driven very conservatively. There were around 97,000 miles on it. I had it less than a year when the transmission just up and quit working.

I then bought a 2000 Toyota Tundra V8. 90,000 miles on it. 157,000 now. Only problem? A loose throttle sensor cable, and better gas mileage than the V6 Ford (due to the Fords degredation).

My experiences with Dodges has been similar, though second hand and more limited than my experiences with Fords. Chevy's I've heard tend to be a bit more reliable. I've rarely hard anything bad about a Toyota or Honda, and personal experience with both backs up every good thing I've heard second hand.

If US car makers cannot give me a vehicle equal to the one I now own, I will not buy a vehicle from them. Why would I? Patriotism? Sorry, this patriot likes his car to start when he turns the key so that he can continue earning an Uncle Sam-taxed paycheck.

Oh, August is quite right about the necessity of a truck (or an El Camino:D) in rural areas.

here i had to search the cardboard boxes but i found it gallery 1 gallery 2 .
personnally i think that the governments shouldn't interfere with the economy by injecting founds i mean when you create a company in a capitalism system you know that bankrupcy's part of the game if the country interfere this way then we'll never know if capitalism's a good thing or not ; a country wants to become the owner of a company or a shareholder no problem but giving founds like we see it actually it's cautioning the thoughtless risk-taking

on that i'm gonna take my (ecological) scooter head to the closest supermarket and buy myself ingredients to make me fresh nice hamburgers http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...icons/bien.gif

@August: yes, mid size sedan is what I wanted to express. Freud obviously got the better of me. Thanks for bringing this up.


@jpm: there are some true classics amongst these cars!
Which brings me to another question, capitalistic system or not, but would american pride actually allow the loss of it's domestic car industry? AFAIK US cars are one of the great symbols of the US. Losing these could become very bitter. How is that seen?

Excellent post Monica Lewinsky. :up: Fully share your sentiments. :yep:

Can I just call you Monica? ;)

Only if you buy him flowers and dinner first...

OK - this idea that letting one of the big 3 die would cause a ripple effect that would destroy the economy - is bullocks. Yes - there would be some effect - but lets examine things here shall we? We will use GM as the example.

Option 1 - bail em out - again....
How many Billions of tax dollars are taken out of the hands of the working people to shore up a failing business? Doing so robs the working class to pay for the errors of the powerful. Ok - so some people whose efforts right now are focused on producing a product that the market really doesnt want - will get the opportunity to continue doing things the same way for the same result. You do know insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, right? But hey - they and the suppliers and everyone else get to keep their jobs for a while still right? At least until the next bailout is due..... What does all that money - that you or I would have been able to use for the things we need - now its not in the economy any more - what effect does that have? Less business transactions, less spending - the bottom and "recession" deepens.

Option 2 - let em fail...
They fail - employees are let go - suppliers see there customer dissolve. Now what? Well - wait a minute - now there are GM customers who still need parts - so the suppliers are going to have some customers still. The new car buyers now have less "choice" - but since the ones who would have bought GM cars can't - more business for the other car companies. Something the other 2 companies could take advantage of..... Those same suppliers are going to transition from GM supplies and will start competing to provide parts to the other 2 companies. Competition reduces prices - which is good for the consumer.... Now - what about the skilled employees that are out of jobs? Well, with an increase in demand for other brands, increased demand means ramped up production - so many would be able to use their existing skills to ramp into a position with another producer. No, I don't pretend ALL of them would find jobs in the same industry.

Ok - we have taken care of the supplier, the worker - who is left? Oh yea, the executive bigwigs who ran the joint into the ground with their stupidity. Hmmmm - I don't forsee them being asked to take over another big manufacturer due to their history of failure. Seems the only "losers" here are the ones that SHOULD HAVE LOST in the first place. And all without costing you or me or anyone else an extra dime.

Which option works better?????

*Note - instead of bailouts - lets make it more attractive for companies that produce quality goods - like vehicles - to make them here - more american jobs and they don't have to pay to ship the things from china or wherever else. Who cares if it says Toyota - if it was made in Oklahoma?????

OK - this idea that letting one of the big 3 die would cause a ripple effect that would destroy the economy - is bullocks. Yes - there would be some effect - but lets examine things here shall we? We will use GM as the example.

Option 1 - bail em out - again....
How many Billions of tax dollars are taken out of the hands of the working people to shore up a failing business? Doing so robs the working class to pay for the errors of the powerful. Ok - so some people whose efforts right now are focused on producing a product that the market really doesnt want - will get the opportunity to continue doing things the same way for the same result. You do know insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, right? But hey - they and the suppliers and everyone else get to keep their jobs for a while still right? At least until the next bailout is due..... What does all that money - that you or I would have been able to use for the things we need - now its not in the economy any more - what effect does that have? Less business transactions, less spending - the bottom and "recession" deepens.

Option 2 - let em fail...
They fail - employees are let go - suppliers see there customer dissolve. Now what? Well - wait a minute - now there are GM customers who still need parts - so the suppliers are going to have some customers still. The new car buyers now have less "choice" - but since the ones who would have bought GM cars can't - more business for the other car companies. Something the other 2 companies could take advantage of..... Those same suppliers are going to transition from GM supplies and will start competing to provide parts to the other 2 companies. Competition reduces prices - which is good for the consumer.... Now - what about the skilled employees that are out of jobs? Well, with an increase in demand for other brands, increased demand means ramped up production - so many would be able to use their existing skills to ramp into either a position with another producer. No, I don't pretend ALL of them would find jobs in the same industry.

Ok - we have taken care of the supplier, the worker - who is left? Oh yea, the executive bigwigs who ran the joint into the ground with their stupidity. Hmmmm - I don't forsee them being asked to take over another big manufacturer due to their history of failure. Seems the only "losers" here are the ones that SHOULD HAVE LOST in the first place. And all without costing you or me or anyone else an extra dime.

Which option works better?????

*Note - instead of bailouts - lets make it more attractive for companies that produce quality goods - like vehicles - to make them here - more american jobs and they don't have to pay to ship the things from china or wherever else. Who cares if it says Toyota - if it was made in Oklahoma?????

unfortunately that's not the first time that a great american car company disappear just watch my galleries but i agree with you on the fact that if they all would come to disappear that would be a great loss not to say a disaster . even as an european the loss of companies such Chevrolet or Cadillac would make me very (very , very) sad . Who did not dream of driving a Cadillac Fleetwood or a 1959 Eldorado such cars that only american can make there's Porsche there's Mercedes , theres's Bentley none of these brands whatever great they are have what american cars have the american cars have don't know it's indescribable and that's maybe why they are so fun :sunny: . but what i wanted to say it's that the actual problem being very complicated to analize the good way should be maybe to let things go on and let the wound heals by itself that was my though

I think the union needs to take a pay cut.

Will not happen unless..

A) The big 3 go down at the same time.

B) Unions are made unlawful.

UAW is the most powerful union there is. The benefits they get are insane just here alone I am hearing of workers that fit a single bolt and get over 20 dollars an hour. At the speed the line is going that is less than a quarter of the work an Entry level worker struggles at.

Then add in insane benefits.

That is not going to just get "Cut"

So the only way forward is to go electric or go down.

Nice sentiment but not the issue concerning the auto industry. The auto industry has nothing to do with people living beyond their means. The auto industry is living beyond their means. They have gotten government money in the past and still in the hole. The union has crushed the company. If the union was interested in saving their jobs, take a pay cut. The local union of Preston trucking here in MD did it to save their jobs, alas, the writting was on the wall and the owners wanted it to fail anyway because more money would be made breaking up Preston Trucking and they did so a year after the union took the cut. The union workers are making more than the three of us combined and for what? Running in some bolts on an assembly line. Another case and point, Catapiller in York PA. The union was demanding more money and went on strike. Catapiller could not meet their demands and advised the union to leave the pay scale were it was and have a job or get a pay raise and the factory would close. The union was given the choice. They wanted more money, got it and the factory closed in two weeks. So, a bunch of strong arm union bosses got nothing....no job, no pay, no health benefits. Like I said, unions break companies, do not make them. Give the auto makers the money but the union has to be abolished and payscale created commenserate with the work at hand.

Screw that, clean house like Reagan did with the air traffic controllers union. Plenty of folks would take the job at $15.00/hour. The unions have strong armed enough, however, we all better believe the unions played a factor financially in Obama's favor during his campaign. Just like the mafia, it is payback time. To further that notion, the union screams that all of these poeple will loose their jobs right on down to the suppliers. It is in essense blackmail and puts the government over the barrel with their butt cheeks wide open. The union knows this and uses this tactic all the time.

Yea, can't happen. True classics. All hail, Lee Iacoccca!
You gonna get yours