I'm not the one telling people they should believe in invisible, unproven, unchecked things and hear-say. The burden of evidence is with those doing so. they claim that there is something existing that you cannot see, hear, smell, taste and feel, canot conclude on, cannot measure, cannot experience as what it is being sold as to the crowd. While doing so, calling them "religious" should earn them respect, while all others doing so but not calling it a religion of theirs would be locked away in a mental asylum? C'mon, that is really discrimination, isn't it.

All I say is: evidence, please. Thats what I say, and where my dogmatizing ends. Your or any religion's claims about what you/they assume god is, is not wanted and not needed here, neither me nor the world needs it. If god exists, I want him personally to tell me, not just some minor self-declared lackey talking on god's behalf. and if he shows up, I would have some very unfriendly words to tell him about how messy a creation he created and how eager to judge and punish he is for having formed things the way he had wanted them to be, and let these things suffer for his ideas and declare them guilty for his own faults.

I'm not telling you to believe in anything, sir. Your opinion about what you may assume god is or isn't is not wanted and not needed here either, not does the world need it.

Look at that statement above real hard, sir SkyBird. Looks rather condescending and imperious, doesn't it. Funny, it's the same thing you just said, but in reverse. So now, please explain to me why your opinion is needed and wanted around here, but mine isn't? After all, they are just opinions.

As for the rest of your drivel, it doesn't deserve an answer, IMO.

Just copying what I said and assume it works the other way around only shows your lack of argument, Trucker. I say again: it is not me selling an invisible car to people. It is not me telling people what colour it has, although it is invisible. and it is not me telling them how to drive it, although I never sat inside and drove it myself, since I can't see that invisble door and thus never got inside.

If somebody has to look at something real hard here, then it is you.

Evidence, please, else keep thy religion to thyself, you and everybody believing precious beliefs like you. You demand respect for something that did not earn respects and has served the world and mankind more bad than good, and caused a monumental ammopunt of human suffering. that is because it was already given too much respect, and the questions people like me are asking - have not been asked for too long.

Again, in your one-track mind, you missed the point. I did not expect turning your words around to "work" any more than your original statement "worked". I expected you to take a look at your own attitude. Your attitude is exactly the same as the religious fanatics. You are an anti-religious fanatic. You are just as sure in your mind that there is no God (since God has not spoken to you directly) as the religious fundamentalists are in assuming that they are the only ones who know what God wishes. Your lack of tolerance for other beliefs is exactly the same intolerance that you rail against when practiced by the religious fundamentalists. You, sir, rail against hypocrisy while practicing it openly.

And I am not selling religion, when are you going to get that (never mind I even asked the question:nope:) Only your opinion counts since you are undoubtedly the expert on everything that does or does not exist. I demand no respect, sir, I perfectly understand that respect is earned, not demanded. Neither do I seek any respect from you. What I do demand is my right to speak my mind in a civilized manner. Yet you seem to think that I am not entitled to my opinion because it doesn't fit into your little world.

BTW your logic regarding religion works both ways (whether you care to open your eyes and see that fact or not). Evidence to the contrary please or keep your lack of religion to yourself. I don't expect you to get that, either.

Says the guy who started an "I see UFOs" thread... :lol::roll:

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Okay, that's not fair and you both know it. When you say 'UFOs' you're joking about flying saucers, and he said in his thread he didn't know what he saw, and was asking people for ideas. He also specifically said he didn't believe in UFOs, so that's dirty fighting on your part.

I'm not taking sides it this one, because I partly agree with both. DT is right: Sky, you do sound just like a religious fanatic in your preaching...and that's what it is.

On the other hand, calling the Pope 'The Dope', is rude and demeaning, but no more so than some of the things say about the President and the current candidates on both sides. People resort to calling the other side names, and they shouldn't. It cheapens their arguments and their credibility.

Always the voice of reason Steve...

Ditto:oops: It is different (but it's the same, too, in a different way).

Ah, I see august once again could not resist the temptation to lie about other people and distort the truth about them, like he often did in the past about me. In fact I said repeatedly in that thread that I did not think to have seen an UFO. Well, once an August, always an August. I certainly do not expect anything different from him, then - thats why I have blocked him. So could you guys please stop quiting him so that I must not take note of his productions.

Trucker, whatever, I see you talking in circles. If somebody claims that something he just believes exists and should be respected both as quality and in attitide of the person beloieving, but he cannot give any evidence or solid proof for, than he is not on the same eye level with a statement like mine that as long as it cannot be seen, shown, demonstrated in any way and cannot be checked, analysed and proven, and that then it is a reasonable conclusion that it probably does not exist for there is no reason to conclude so. If you cannot see that simple reason and nevertheless demand respect for your so far purely imaginery claims, then it is your problem, not mine. A problem for people like me you just become when you approach us with your claims, or try to make society falling for your unproven claims. And that is what relgiopns always do, and have casued war after war, barabary after barbay, cruelty after cruelty over. It is dangerous and threatening to both reason and humanity to accept such attitude claiming ground and value that it does not deserve and has never earned.

If that reacting attitude of mine is religious preaching, then the term obviously has totally different meanings in my and your language.

Evidence for your claims, please, else stop pestering me and the world with your private little fantasies. That'S whyt they are, and if you do not wish to be told, stop approaching foreign peopole with your claims and kill their nerves. I am fed up with hearing abiut this nonsens, I do not want to need to hear it and i do not want to constantly tell other people where the line is that they cannot step over without interfering with my own right to simply not needing to care about their ideologies and beliefs.

That simple. It all could stop immediately, here and now. But it probably will not stop, since religions and religious zealots almost always push for getting more and wanting that what they so far have been refused - until they got it all. It never is enough, it all must be theirs.

And that is where people like me stand up from the table and become angry, you know.

Keep thy relgion to thyself, stop making it a fairground attraction of public concern, and if you believe you have a private relation with a deity, nice for you, honour it by keeping it that way: private: Else you behave not a bit different like some celebrity that behaves worse and worse just to make it into the headlines and be taken note of by a public that for the most could not care less for it's narcissi8m and pathologic tendency to take itself far too important.

SkyBird, get off your soapbox. I've never said any of the things that your are railing against, yet you accuse me of talking in circles? I have made no claims. I defend no religion. I defend my right to speak my mind in a civil manner (for the 2nd time, ok, not quite totally civil since I laughed at the UFO thing, I admit). At least I am able to admit to the possibility that something I've done is wrong.

You, on the other hand, can't even acknowledge your own actions without giving the same speech over and over.

All I have to say to you now is whatever.
Edit : The following comment was made under the delusion that SB had made an earlier comment regarding how "non-americans" view things. Consider it retracted.
I'll go now and let your poor non-american self alone so that you can ponder the meaning of yourself.

In my opinion your use of the term child abuse to describe what you did is in itself an abuse of the english language. We will have to agree to disagree on that.

As for the UFO accusation levelled at you that is unfair and a distortion of that event. Perhaps some of the dirty politics from the US political trail is rubbing off on the forums. :lol:

you pick up religion'S cause and defend it's demands to be seen like it wants to be seen, so no matter if you do that without being asked or believing in what you say - you take the Flak. What else do you expect!?

I give the same speech over and over indeed - because it is the same stuff being raised and thrown over and over again. Since I did not change my views on it, and do not see why I would need to change to the other side of the street just because somebody starts coming along, it is like mthis and not any different.

And this: my "poor non-american self"...!?:lol: :lol: Next time make comments like that in the very beginning - it saves us both a lot of time, for I would not care for you any longer immediately. My excuse is my poor non-american self dared for a moment to forget that america is the meaning of the world, and that's why I turned nagging. After all, what use is there in Darwinian evolution if it does not culminate in America? :88) Forgive my impertinence, I ask for your superior American apology.


We both know the meaning (translation) of the term, and i mean it exactly like that and not any way different. Like I call pressing kids to be child soldiers in Africa also as child abuse. Children are defenseless and weak. that is what makes abusing their bodies, their minds or their hands so absolutely disgusting, unexcusable and ignorrant for the natural human dignity they are born with and that is their most basic right right to be respected. the dignity of man is untouchable, says the very first article of the german constitution. And that does not exclude the dignity of human mind's capacity and potential. But then abusing the defenselessness of these weak minds to fill them with fear of hell, and respect for divine totalitarianism, a God that punishes if you do not obey his commands, and believing in hallucinations and stuff that nowhere never is to be seen, checked and tested for it's real existence...? That means to take away the mind's ability to think free and reasonable, and to come to it's own conclusions by that. It is not genital but intellectual circumcision.

So now we just need to sit and wait until somebody comes along to tell me that as an inhabitant of the former Third Reich I should remain silent in shame and excuse myself for Nazi crimes that I did not commit, and that we Germans are poor for not being eternally thankful for america and not promising to be its obedient, uncritical vasall. So you see - after eight years of playing this song, I know the sound of it. :up: And the one reproachful questions that aims at ending all discussion immediately: I wonder why America ever liberated such a leftist, god-less commie-Europe...?! :doh:

I'm truly sorry and I apologize for starting this thread in the first place... I should have known better... :oops: The world is an angry enough place as it is without adding more logs to the fire... :damn:

First the important part. My apologies for the "poor non-american self" thing. I incorrectly believed that you had earlier stated something regarding how "non-americans" view things. My jab wasn't intended to imply that America is "the meaning of the world". Again, my apologies for the misunderstanding.

Now, where exactly in this thread did you see me "pick up religion'S cause and defend it's demands...". Is pointing out that hypocrisy is a human trait defending religion? What do I expect, you ask? I expect you to read what I typed before you go ranting off into the wild blue yonder about the evilness of religion and blame me for your rant because you didn't get the first simple point.

I really wish Neal would simply forbid any religious discussions. That simple. where there is no strike, ther eis no counterstrike. Where there is no claim, there must be no counter-argument. i haven't stopped to start Islam- and religion-threads myself for no reason long time ago.

Your board your rules, Neal. Simply ban it, and all are done and well-served. As long as the one side rises it's head, the other inevitably will do as well - and there you go.

P.S. Just noted your latest, Trucker. Didn'T you plan to leave it behind? However, you apologize for that certain part, i accpet, and pleas consider my angry reply to that as never having been written.

I strongly suggest we stop here now, no matter remaining questions and disagreements. At least that'S what I do now, and right here.

Forget that. You guys feel free to quote anything i say if you want. Unlike certain people i'd never do the electronic equivalent of sticking my fingers in my ears and yelling "lalalalalala" when a person talks. :roll:

Yep, I did plan to leave it behind, but did feel that I needed to clear up that one point. And I've been accused of wanting to have the last word a few times, too:D

And yes, stopping here is probably a wise thing to do also.:up:

We all know you are anti-religious, we get it. So now you want to infring on freedom of speech as well??? If you do not like a post why bother to inject your opinions, then act like a little girl and cry for a moderator when poeple disagree with you.

That's been his shtick since i've been here...