I mentioned banning books, not rewriting history. As to the Founders, religion and prayer, I've spent the last two years making an intensive study of that very topic, and I think it's definitely the Right who want to change the story here. We can have that discussion if you like.

I certainly agree with you there. As with books, radio is a free market, and right-wing drivel is certainly what most of us saps like to hear (don't get me wrong, I only compare it to left-wing drivel, which is usually a lot more boring).

Fair enough point, and at the national level arguably true. But since most banning attempts come at local levels, and most attempts are for moral reasons, and since the Right always tries to claim the religious high ground, I hope you'll forgive me for assuming, and continuing to assume, that that is the source.
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/...c=banned_books

Of course, one of the reasons included is "politically incorrect, racist or sexist language" some of it does indeed come from the other side. But you have to admit that the left is less likely to promote banning because of "profanity or violence, sex or sex education, homosexuality, witchcraft and the occult, “secular humanism” or “new age” philosophies".
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/most-banned.html

kinda forgot to add it ? and to your previous post

well thats your opinion, and since you're american..it can be ignored too:D

Why don't you post what both those bills represent instead of hiding behind their names.

-S

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: I've had a good laugh this morning thanks to you. Now off to work for me!

-S

Are you joking, or saying this is an internal US affair? Or did I overestimate your intelligence?

Unlike you he is at least not ashamed to put his location down... :up:

Gee I thought the smiley was obvious enough but maybe I overestimated YOUR intelligence... :up:

It's not a smiley it's a grin and as we're all talking monkeys that display of teeth and glee makes me VERY ANGRY!!

Please don't throw feces at me. :o

Both of you are making this either personal or about US vs Europe.
Keep it clean and not personal...thank you :arrgh!:

You're not welcome :up: :rotfl:

Or we're just kidding around with each other. Hence the smileys...

Very well...hard to tell the difference between VERY sarcastic and plain fun - I asume the first.

He is 52 years old and grew up during the Depression? My math is bad but not THAT bad.

He's been married 52 years, not 52 years old.
:)

The Republican is a relatively large Strepsirhine primate, belonging to the family Conservidae. The only species in the monotypic genus Publis, it is found only on the island of Madagascar.

http://media.tumblr.com/fSymsOGXOcju...0YrNRZ_500.gif
My current interest about what the republicans really are is displayed above...

Where shall we start! With the inscription on the liberty bell or that Ben franklin himself requested that every session of Congreess begin with prayer...I have very old history books that are clearly different from the latest ones used in schools today. The shift is of recent and not the other way around. The national archives have all the evidence to support the history before it was hijacked. I am well prepared on this matter and it will be an interesting discussion.

I read this and was initially inclined to think it was an urban legend...surprise! It's true. http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/whatiam.asp

More power to you, Mr. Esseff. You proved the American Dream, and you have nothing to be ashamed of except the misfortune to be surrounded by have-nots who blame you for their lack of success in life.

[quote=Frame57]The same Ben Franklin who requested Congress open with prayer was branded a heretic and even an atheist by religious leaders of his own day. Of course the reason was that he questioned the honesty and sincerity of those leaders.
http://americanrevolutionblog.blogsp...-stand_27.html

However, his actual stated beliefs would earn him similar treatment by any serious Christian leader today.
http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib..._Stiles_1.html

Franklin believed, but he expressed doubts about the divinity of Jesus, which would, I believe, earn him the wrath of modern evangelicals were he to enter the political arena today.

Likewise Jefferson, who told his nephew Peter Carr to "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_carr.html

This was the kind of thing that led Christian leaders of his own time to oppose his presidency and label him and atheist.

If we're talking about school textbooks, then I agree, to a point. Schoolbooks are always being rewritten to suit the times, and it's good to oppose it, if for no other reason than to keep the conversation alive. I dislike history books in general, unless they are tightly focused on a specific subject. I have come to prefer biographies of late, as they tend to give not only the subject's own writings and thoughts, but also those of his contemporaries. Last year I read Dumas Malone's massive six-volume, 3500-page biography of Jefferson, which led me on an entertaining journey through seven more books, culminating in Annette Gordon-Reed's Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings.

But I'm also fond of 'different' history books. Two favorites: Who Were The Founding Fathers, by Steven H. Jaffe http://www.amazon.com/Who-Were-Found.../dp/0805031022 which doesn't try to explain them, but rather shows what they thought of themselves and each other, then goes on to show from each generation's writings what they thought of the Founders, including their attempts to use those men's words to support a variety of different, and often conflicting, causes; which brings us back to the subject at hand.

The second is Moral Minority: Our Skeptical Founding Fathers, by Brooke Allen http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Minority.../dp/1566636752 She is biased toward atheism, or at least unbelief, but she makes some good points about what each of the big six (Franklin, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton) actually believed, or at least what can be culled from their own writings and the opinions of those who knew them.

Oh, and as to the Pennsylvania State House Bell (its original name), all the inscription shows is that Isaac Norris, who ordered it, was indeed a Christian, as were (presumably) all of his Quaker fellows. Except for those like Ben Franklin, who was definitely not a Quaker.

I hope so (on both counts).