Really interesting. It seems SH3 hydrophone sound: ship sound and ping sound are all wrong.

When I first time play SH3. I wonder why ship sound are different compare to Danger Water's sound. I can here the engine sound. And then I guess may be that old style steam cylinder engine sound are much loudder and the ship hull are works like a speaker. Now I know that's not true.

1) I don't think i've ever been on anything bigger than the Woolwich Ferry :D

Must fix that one day and book myself a cruise on a big liner.

2) The different sound files of the tankers compared to merchants may be partly due to them being wider than the cargo's and merchants then, therefore displacing water at a wider angle - flow noise. And possibly different prop sizes/numbers.

By the same token a 10,000 ton ship should create a different flow noise to a 5,000 ton ship due to the width and length of hull , number/size of props etc.

3) which would result in benefits to the game players in building up experience at the sonar station to differentiate between the different hydro sounds, IF there were more subtle variations in the sounds.

4) If the reports stayed the same, see 3) above :).
Saves the game doing the work for you. If you don't wanna waste your time chasing useless contacts, get on the sonar yourself.


Yes PT, i'd be happy to.

Had a look on your "version 3.2" thread and noticed the comment for V4 says " New multiple hydrophone engine sounds". Seems you're on the case already. Thanks dude :up:

Couldn't find the download of V4 on your filefront page tho.

You mean the hydro sounds in SH3 differ from those in Dangerous waters wdg4587?

Are the hydro sounds in Dangerous Waters realistic?

And how do you know the hull doesn't work like a speaker and the steam cylinder engines are not much louder, on the basis of what geosub has said?

Engines create vibration, vibration creates sound, and given the size of the engines used in ships, and the effectiveness of water as a sound conductor....

No disrespect intended to geosub, and he obviously knows more about the dynamics of sonar than i do, but his comments suggest to me that to an extent, even he is guessing.
Or is he?
Certainly geosub has been ON a ship, but has he ever been UNDER one?

Has anyone actually heard the sonar sound of different ships received by a sub?

Anyone that has please step forward. And i mean that most sincerely :)

I know what I am saying! :up: And believe me I have been below another ship. Thank God it wasn't just 10meters:rotfl: .

As for the flow noise, there is a level of distinction like that:

Warship/Merchant/Well maintained/new merchant/motorship/fishing boat.

Don't take for granted that because the flow noise of a 5000tn ship is diffrent that a 10000tn ship this will lead the sonarman to determine the displacment! He will identify a MERCHANT!

In game Dangerous Waters you most time are hearing hydrophone sound and of course looking at sonar screen. And there are less graphics you can see and even no one picture of submarine interior. And I guess these guys also develop simulator for Navy.

Were you in a submarine when you were below this ship wdg?

If so did you hear any engine noise?

And hello btw :D

All i'm trying to find out here, is whether engine noise can be detected through sonar, and how much the flow noise differs between different sizes of ship.

The fact that the prop noise is discernable enough for a WW2 sonar operator to be able to count the prop revs is already known.

I'm not suggesting the flow noise difference between a 5,000 ton ship will be discernable from the flow noise of a 10,000 ton ship, but the flow noise isn't the only sound detected by sonar, and the sonar noise picked up between a small and large merchant may be different. ie: 2,500 and 10,000 tons.
If not from the flow noise, then the sound of the props. Or maybe the sound of the engines, or all three elements combined.

I've looked in the sound files of SH3, and the engine noise is included in some of the files. In others, strangely, it seems to be absent. Some of the files appear to be mis-named accordin to the sounds within them.

I'm just trying to determine what can reasonably be expected to be picked up by sonar, and how the noise differs when tracking various ships using it.

Until we can establish just how much, or what differences cause sonar to detect a noticeably different sound from one ship versus another, we're all going round in circles with different ideas and opinions, and no one can agree on any improvements.

If the developers of Dangerous Waters make simulators for the Navy, but it doesn't allow the ability to determine a ships speed from the prop rotation, then they can't call it an accurate simulator, since we know that can be done. Therefore theres still room for improvement.

When a ship passes over you, you can only hear the propeller revolution, nothing else! Sometimes if the target is fast the submarine shakes a little bit. Not an engine sound you can forget about that!

As for the rest that you say, I think you state it correctly, but in order to catch up all these you need much imagination because there is not much experience on something like that. I can say you for example:

1.The warship's propeller beating is more sharp, and the flow noise also sharp, because the surfaces of warhip's hull are more frequently cleaned that the merchants.

2. A fishing boat usually has a two stoke engine and a very fast rotating shaft (difficult to count beats) and generally it sounds like "tttrrrrrrrrrrrr":D

I feel like i've written loads on a question that had a straightforward answer, if the answer came from someone that knew what sonar from a sub sounds like when listening to ships.

Interesting that the flow noise of a warship can be differentiated from a merchant simply because the hull is cleaned more often :o

Any idea why the prop sound is sharper?

As for the rest of what i said, the basic sounds already exist, and as you say, i think all that's needed is some imagination. For example, the flow noise can be altered slightly, say made to sound a little deeper or sharper, for wider hulled and bigger ships, and ships with bigger props would do less revs for their given speed than smaller ships, and sound sharper and/or deeper too. The type of noise would also depend on how many props the ships had.

The effects between ships can be scaled, say with almost indescernable differences for similar sized/width ships in prop and /or flow noise, but more noticeable when tracking ships of increasing difference to each other.

If it's done right you wouldn't be able to tell some apart, but others you would, and it would depend on how "tuned in" your hearing was, and of course experience.

Apologies if i had doubts about the accuracy of your earlier comments, it wasn't clear to me what kind of experience you spoke from, or whether it was guesswork.

You might have been a diver or something and heard a ship pass overhead.

Your last post cleared that up. You've been under a ship in a sub and listened to it.
That's the kind of input i was looking for if possible, from someone that knew first hand what he was talkng about.

Thank you geosub :up:

It is not only the hull that it usually clearer, it is also the smoother hydronamic line of the warships that makes the diffrence in flow noise. I don't know about battleships and carriers.

The propellers are also distinguished, for the same reason. They should be clearer and designed to meet other requirements.

Another distinguishing characteristic of the old merchants is a noise produced by the shaft, which by the years, tends to "drop".

But I don't dare to tell you more because I am not a sonar specialist.

IS THERE A SUB SONARMAN OUT THERE?

The shaft noise would have probably helped them (WW2 sonar ops) distinguish between newer ships and the older WW1 era ships.

I was thinking in terms of maybe more rattly engines, as i said in a post earlier, but since that isn't the case, the shaft noise would do just as well as a substitute :D
Slowly but surely, with your help, the info you're giving me and the original idea are coming together :up:

That's the spirit PT :yep:;)


RDP

Not heard from him in 3 days since he posted that comment.

26-09-08
Philip Thomson
[quote]
Each ship don't have different engine sounds.
Each engine has different sounds.
Each engine fits lot of different ships.
So there's a whole bunch of different ships with same engine.
One same engine has same sound.
Lots of merchants, few engines.
Few engines, few sounds.[quote]

26-09-08
Philip Thomson
[quote]There were two explanations, I gave just one.

The other one is that this is a game.[quote]


[REL] Thomsen's Sound Pack V3.2 - May 20, 2008 - NEW VERSION

27-09-08

27-09-08
Philip Thomson
roadhogg
28-09-08 TO 30-09-08

NO REPLY from PT

RDP
:hmm:

You think so?

Credit goes to yamoto9 for providing this link:

LINK: http://www.hnsa.org/sound/

Personally i'm not so sure one i can think of deserves this info, but since it may be in the interests of the SH3 comunity. . .nuff said.

Sure. You can also do that in SH3 without periscope up to determine target speed change. I remember there are some tutorial and one training mission on that.

But for exactly speed you need identify ship type first. So you can know how much distance ship passed per turn. Basically fast ship using small high speed propeller and slow ship using big slow speed propeller. In that game computer automatically analysis sound spectrum and compare to recorded data to identify ship. (And I guess engine sound may be also used for analysis).

And moden submarine using towed line array, it has some ability to determine target distance if target is not far. And if the submarine are in movement, by using Target Motion Analysis (TMA), it can also determine target solution not based on ship identify. Of course you can also do TMA on WW2 submarine by ploting on map.

These recordings may be of interest

http://www.hnsa.org/sound/

Real WWII Ship sounds?

http://www.sound-effects-library.com...atarequest=mlm

Thanks laufen for the links, second one is new to me and any new realistic sounds are a bonus.

wdg i was gonna do a mod to enable the prop count but after looking through forums i discovered that a prop count already seems to be possible in SH3, apart from bugs with the count for damaged ships, like where one prop is out of action or the ship is crawling at just a few knots, which is usually due to attack damage anyway.

Therefore it seems like theres no point me bothering to do something thats already been done.

Shame really, because i was going to add new ship sound files to it, including things like a squeeky prop on some of the older ( WW1 era or badly maintained newer ones) ships, different rotation speeds for different prop numbers and sizes, plus an attempt at adding a 3 position cycle switch in the sonar room to isolate the different sounds, ( ie: wash/flow noise - engine - prop ) with an on/off toggle button so that in the off position the sounds were merged as normal atm.
Since Thomson is adding new sound files to one of his mods ( apparently ), i've scrapped the idea and just modded some of my own sound files to my liking.
Lets hope for every one elses sake he does a decent job of it.

Thanks for your assistance wdg, much appreciated :up:

Btw: for anyone that wants to mod their sound files.

You'll find the various ship sound files in the SH3/data/Sound folder.

You can alter the sound files using something like Audacity, which is an audio editing program ( free - findable using web search bar).
Or
You can make certain alterations to the sound file from within SH3.sdl, like pitch, doppler effect, and some others, so you may not need Audacity, depending on how much you want to alter the file sound.

You can play with the sound files, then once you've got a file to sound how you like, name it and place it back in the SH3/data/Sound folder.

(Best to copy the original file in to somewhere else before playing with it, in case you mess it up first time ;) , i copied all the sound files for all the ships in to a back up folder before i touched them.)

Go to the SH3/data/Sea folder for the ship you want to alter and open the .dsd file with S3DEditor (free download available in the forums).
Here you'll find the soundsource identifier files for the ship.

Find the file type you've altered (typically _hyd, _engine, _mix etc) and rename it to your new file name.

Next go to SH3/data/Sound folder and open SH3.sdl file with S3DEditor and do the same (rename it).

Bob your uncle :up:

Might sound a bit involved but the chain of command goes:
SH3/data/Sea/ship folder -ship model soundsource file (.dsd)
SH3/data/Sound - SH3.sdl
SH3/data/Sound (.wav)

Happy sound modding :)