Russia has successfully completed operation 'Making Peace in Georgia'.
Now the General Staff is preparing operation 'Making Friendship in Ukraine'.

Until the cossacks come and wipe you out.

Nonsense Skybird. There is actually quite a bit of things flowing into Russia from the West (especially money) that they can't afford to let go by the wayside. As I said before do you think China's going to clean up their nuclear dumps? What about the raw materials trade? What about their food imports? What about medical tech and materials that fly into Russia? What about the many other commercial grade tech that Russia has been using lately to come up to world standards? What about all those lucrative commercial contracts from the West? You sound like a drunken Putin stumbling through the halls of the Kremlin trying desperately to justify his stupid actions. Or you sound like Medvedev. This buffoon said recently that he's "not afraid of a new Cold War". How idiotic is that? Russia simply can't afford that in any terms.

You see this whole thing from only one point of view and fail to see the true realities of it. You're like writing fiction here....just like Chalmers Johnson. If Russia were to isolate themselves and their energy, what kind of influence would they have with the West in any way? The answer is absolutely zilch. While their influence has shot down dramatically the last couple of weeks, they stand to gain nothing here and are stupidly aligning themselves against more than 26 nations......most of whom are fully economically developed, have most of the highest regarded R & D bases, and where most of the commercial grade technologies come from. Russia knows what they stand to lose. They stand to lose everything in short order. China and India can't save their necks. Nor do I believe either want anything to do in this situation. I actually think China is enjoying watching Russia push itself into a winless corner. It'll mean more for them as well in the long term. Rather than Putin's stupid paranoia over NATO, Putin should be looking East. If he were actually smart, he would recognize where the real threat to Russia lies. Putin is simply a fool leading his Country back into the isolation that destroyed them during the last Century. There is no quibbling that you can provide to show the alternative. There simply is very little we need in total from Russia, and all those things are things we can provide ourselves when it comes down to it.

Fine, SD, good to see you asking questions that already were answered. That way I must not adress them again.

For all others, this is a well-done roadmap to conflict, a chronicle of the steps that led to war since beginning of this year. there may be some things that some people may not have taken note of:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...574812,00.html

I think your (and spiegel's) answers are fallacious propaganda with no bearing on the true realities Sky. That's the problem. These things were not properly addressed in any way whatsoever. You have made claims that without Russia's energy, Europe is doomed. That's just plain dumb. As if Europe doesn't provide anything needed by Russia. And the USA as well. Your view on this is total bunk. You've said China and India will save Russia, but India is also moving closer to the West, and China is keeping quiet on all fronts. China would absolutely love to see a misaligned Russia against NATO. As it weakens Russia considerably. You've also claimed US action in Iraq gave Russia a green light to "Unilateral" military action without regard to UN agreements. Again...total BS. How many years did the US spend in the UN, and what agreements did we have? How many other nations have fought alongside us in these wars as well? Did Russia follow that model? Nope. They truly did go "Unilateral". So, where are the whiners Sky? I believe you were one of them if I recall correctly.

I can go on all day and readdress your points one by one, but it wouldn't change the realities about the major geopolitical movements. NATO has moved Eastward, the missile defenses are expediting, Russia has lost more influence in Eastern Europe, Russia is looking more and more rogue on a daily basis, and still Russia is on it's way to losing out on nominal trade agreements and other worldwide economic organizations which are economically beneficial to a country. The claims Russia doesn't need any of it, is like the idiot Medvedev claiming Russia "isn't afraid of a new Cold War". OOOOOh. Tough Guy. :roll: Not. Russia couldn't afford new arms races or a new Cold War in general. They simply don't have the means. The contrarian view to this hogwash propaganda or false wishes. The entry into these economic groups is an element needed to sustain themselves economically against a world thriving in new technology. Without it, leveraged economic growth to wolrd standards becomes a challenge. Russia is no world leader in anything other than energy exports. If Russia were the only ones in the world that have timber and oil, you would be right. Their leverage would be greater indeed. But they aren't the only ones with these things.

Russia can't afford a Cold War period. I was reading in a defense magazine that although the Russian defense budget has increased its real term value has DECREASED due to soaring inflation, its facilities aren't up to scratch either, AFAIK a lot of them are rotting away after years of neglect in the 90's. Although NATO is considerable weaker at the moment I believe that we aren't the "sitting ducks" (apart from the UK which really can't do anything due to the ME conflicts) that some people may seem to think. Also, even though there are a lot of US forces committed over seas it still has a lot of power, its navy and air force alone would be a formidable opponent to the Russian "threat". Hows the ruskie sub fleet doing thesedays? For them to mount an effective campaign they would need to effectively shut down the Atlantic to shipping in which case europe would run out of supplies, which would need to involve somehow overcoming the GIUK barrier which would be no easy task with the SOSUS network there.

What you do is what a dog is doing when trying to catch its tail: running on spot, in endless circles. I read your reply two hours ago, and now again, but no matter how hard I try, I can't see you having a solid argument, or a descirption that matches reality - only your perceived self-image that constanlty feeds back to itself and that way mistakes itself with being right. But by that, your claims are no arguments at all, but simply this: arbitrary claims. And claiming you can a lot since the day is long.

I remember from the past where endless exchanges like this with you always lead: nowhere. So my offer is to simply wait, watch and see. If Russia can't sustain what it is doing, like you claim, they sooner or later must give up on Georgia and the Ukraine, and watch helplessly as NATO again aggressively moves East, despite it's broken promises to Yeltsin, coming from two US administrations. And there is a huge Asian conference upcoming, and China already has indicated that they support the Russian position. Russia will press for support from Uzbekistan and Kirghistan as well. For them, a neutral position of other states already is the desired success, since it means: no opposition to them. And that has been one of the purposes of their whole game.

I leave it to this short reply, since no matter what I say and no matter what reference to reality I give - you will keep on running after your tail anyway. And that can't be helped with arguments.

Not sure if your intention was to adress me, if so, you did it in vein. see what I said under point 1.), at the top of this thread.

Yours is not a reality of any kind. Especially when looking at the sum totals of what items geostrategically have played out. Everything Russia has wanted, has become the opposite reality due to their stupid/shortsighted miscalculations. And when looking at who has what needs in the long run, they are simply backing themselves in a corner. You are merely a blind propagandist for Russia, and display only the same empty rhetoric as the blind Medvedev as of recently regarding their "needs". What you say here in these forums is no different than his own empty rhetoric. And Skybird, in the past, you've been entirely wrong on seemingly every single prediction you've made regarding matters of global geostrategic circumstances. You've lost your credibility to predict any outcomes long ago. To me, this is only the same biased doom and gloom you always have given here. And ultimately, you will be wrong again in thinking any of this is beneficial to Russia in the long term. Or any of it means doom for the West. You were predicting America's economic and military demise due to Iraq only a few short years ago. And your predictions there now look terribly silly.

Your point #1 doesn't address the realities of Russia's current strategic arsenal at all. Merely wishful thinking. They have more money right now, but they are still no economic powerhouse. (Which is why they need nominal trade agreements and entry into world economic bodies, something they know, something you have no clue about). If we were to go back to the status of the Cold War and both sides were to begin the race for nuclear primacy....Russia's already lost in terms of quantity, quality, and especially reliability. They could not build as fast and as far as we could. And making an enemy out of 26 or more nations doesn't help them at all. Your point is moot.

EDIT: Nvm..
gonna sit this one out..

You guys stay put in Afghanstan and Iraq
and in the meantime Russia will pick up. :rotfl:

DO NOT QUIT THOSE AREAS

Iraq is winding down significantly. Afghanistan is no major problem for us currently at all. But rest assured Bruno, if it came down to it, and global war with Russia was imminent.......Iraq, Afghanistan and any other minor action would be put directly on the back burner. I believe we would completely pull our troops out of whatever region to destroy Russian military units wherever we would need to engage them. Russia would be the priority....Afghanistan would be a forgotten/deserted theatre of action. Don't ever think twice on this one. Our military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan would not inhibit our ability to reorder, and redeploy to the bigger threat. In the meantime, we won't pull our troops from those regions. Where they're at currently actually puts them pretty close to the Russian border if needed.

China has been dead silent. What are you talking about??? This shows you don't know what's going on. Right now, I'm not sure about what China's views are in regards to this situation. I think that when China thinks about it...and they will, Russia's actions presents a negative precedent for China and her provinces. China has all these little provinces under it's control, and wishes to bring Taiwan completely in the fold. A few of these provinces have other ideas and wouldn't mind more autonomy, or even independance. Russia's ideal in breaking up Georgian provinces is not the example China wants for itself. In reality Sky....China's so called support of Russia here is a figment of your imagination. China cares about China...not Russia. I haven't seen anything that shows China's support for Russia in any way, shape, or form. And after thinking about it a little, I think the above reason is why.

And Russia can press for support from any other Central Asian country they wish. Doesn't mean they will get it. We can play that game to.

Here we go:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_9723473.htm

Doesn't sound like China supports Russia at all. Bingo. China knows this could lead to states doing the same thing to provinces China claims as it's own. Territories or claimed provinces such as Xinjiang, Taiwan, Tibet, etc... China knows Russia's actions set a dangerous precedent for China.

SD,

your attempted distortions slowly but surely kill nerves again. Please save me from your enlightened insights. You have made such ridiculous statements already that for me you have disqualified yourself as a disucssion partner here. what you offer is nothing but claims in ignorration of realities, and the same self-glorifying propaganda I remember you for from years ago. Please, simply leave me alone.

That's fine Skybird, but can you clarify where the China thing came from (sources)?

I'm not sure how anybody can infer that China supports Russia based upon that report. China has not shown any support for Russia from any sources I've seen...even though it was alluded by another poster. And regardless, it's blatantly obvious why China won't really support Russia from a geostrategic standpoint. Using this article as a guide to their initial views, it's kind of apparent they won't. They can't afford to. It goes against every principle enshrined in Chinese reunification stances for more than 5 decades. What statement in there gives you any indication that China's ready and willing to take Russia's side here. In case you were unaware, China is big on "their own" territorial integrity. I'm not saying they would support any enlargement of NATO. But it's obvious that supporting Russia here may be a dangerous precedent to Chinese "unity". I don't believe they'll make noise either way. This was just a simple state to state meeting with the usual pleasantries. Ultimately though, Russia will not be able to rely on China for anything.

Just wanted to post a link to a Facebook group in case you're a mamber there:

http://www.new.facebook.com/group.ph...1810378&ref=nf

It's not an anti-Russia group, but a group against Russia's policy and behaviour.

I joined, because I feel Russia is acting aggresively to an unacceptable extent.
Their claims about Kosova/Kosovo as precedence doesn't give them the right to steal territory like this in our modern times. Just wait when Abkhazia and South-Ossetia are independant, as if they ever will be recognized by the world in general, they will then ask to be annexed by Russia. It makes me think of the Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia in 1938. It's not much different.
Also, I must admit that I disagreed strongly with Western Powers, when they decided to recognize the independance of Kosova. Not only because I feared what it would lead to, but also because a migration across borders during many years shouldn't give the newcomers the right to break the country up. An extended autonomy should do just fine, both in the case of Kosovo and in the case of Georgian break-away provinces.
In any case, an independance should always be achieved peacefully by diplomatic negotiations at best, and not by military violence and threats.

"Investors are pulling out of Russia in record numbers following the Russian invasion of Georgia this month, the Financial Times reports Friday. Citing Russian Central Bank data released Thursday, the FT says foreign currency reserves fell $16.8 billion in the week beginning Aug. 8, one of the largest pullouts since the Russian ruble collapse of 1998. Gennady Melikyan, the Central Bank's deputy chairman, acknowledged it is the "political situation" that has triggered the mass capital flight."

How anyone can argue that Russia will benefit in anyway with its present stance is mind boggling. It lost the Cold War because its economy could simply not sustain the arms race - and that was as a union. Now Russia believes, as a single state on its own, it can go down that path and succeed is simply self deception.