Good post http://www.psionguild.org/forums/ima...ies/pirate.gif

Agreed, very good post..

I'm interested to know more of the reasoning behind how the game is harder than it was in real life... did he elaborate any on the reasoning behind the statement at all? I know that it couldn't possibly have been as hard as its is in GWX, but the stock game was pretty easy to start with, meaning that he was basically saying that real life U-boating was like Sunday cruising with the chance of losing your life...

Speaking to the GWX team here, I think it would be fair if you all had a look into this data, as it may help to further improve balance and realism within your mod, and in addition, I imagine it would help a lot of people enjoy your addon further. I'll say though that I'm not thinking this would become an easy way to lose DD's as I'm sure there are plenty of other detection strategies that one might fall prey too, but I think that in many cases, GWX seems to model almost exclusively the aspects of U-Boat operations that serve to make life more difficult and not all that many that make it easier. Just a thought.

Greg

Good post, and it mirrors my thoughts and experiences. First, pray for a heavy sea state. That makes all the difference. Second, generally try to head towards deeper water. Keep a constant direction. Remember that the AI works from a point of contact. Get away from it! Third, use your periscope (if detected) to fight back or to run. In clearer water, the observation scope can be used to see the destroyer on its attack run (doesn't so well work in cloudier or deeper water with mods). Otherwise, keep patient, keep cool, and keep dodging their attacks. With luck, you'll evade them, find deeper water, wear them out, or run into heavier seas. Without luck they'll hit you, you'll run out of batteries, or they'll call in reinforcements.

:yep:

Well put, make course for some deep sea and hope the batteries don't run dry on you... Shalow water will end careers faster than playing for the Leafs....

But I seamed to have the best luck going as deep as I can in shallows (anywhere from 20 to 30 meters) and zig zaging. Pray for a storm, deeper waters, Hermann Goering's boys, or the water is shalow enough for the escorts to blow off their depth charge racks (seen that happen on occasion)....

Hello Greg,

I don't place a lot of faith in stock SH3 in terms of challenge to the player In all my time playing stock SH3 I never got sunk. Sadly as the other senior team members would gladly tell you, if you do action A in SH3, you will have repurcussion in Action B. Its difficult to do X without affecting Y so you have to strike compromises somewhere.

Modifying the sensors was done like it was so that the player faces real threat, because that was the reality of it, the U-Boat force was the second most dangerous force to be in, second only to the kamikaze's of the Japanese. With a 75% death rate there really is no two ways about it, to be historically true, you have to model the aspects that made U-boat operations hard.

However I disagree about nothing being there in GWX to make life easier, you have several things to assist you, such as sonar decoys, anti-sonar and radar coatings, radar warning sets. Not only that, the campaign in 1939/1940 even as far as 1941, is not exactly difficult... I can quite faithfully say that GWX models the "happy times" quite well.

Another little tip to hide your presence even more;

Lower your speed to 1kts when submerged, on silent mode it will go from 100rpm to about 50rpm. (at least on the type VIIb)
I know it's not much, but it saves the half in rpm, surely that would save some noice as well!

In terms of fatality rates there's no arguing about the numbers, though I think objectively I'd put the U-Boats as #1 as the kamakaze's had problems. Though they're missions were to be human guided bombs ensuing a near 100% fatality rate some would miss their targets or be shot down. Though there were hundreds of ships hit by these attacks, a lot of the planes were also shot down. Would be interesting to see the % of kamakaze attacks that were "successfull" in hitting their targets, doubt that it's above 75%.

There's a number of aspects of GWX that are harder than the stock, though there are some major changes that go towards the more realistic side which make the game much easier than the stock version. Trying to evade more than 4 DD's in stock is very tough (once their sonar skills get decent) and they rarely give up. GWX does a good job of simulating a real DC attack where ships would leave after a few hours rather than stick around endlessly dropping DC's till you either die or surface for lack of air. The thermal layers also really help throw off the sonar just enough that dc's will reliably keep exploding 20 or 30 m above you if you're under a layer. You can also bottom your boat (intentionally) as a tactic and the DD won't start using DC's like smart bombs on hit you with 100% accuracy (unless they've already found you).

What is working for this noob is to think about the combination of sea turbulance and thermal layer. I have read there are generally 2 thermal lines. One is just below persicope depth and one seems to be around 160 meters.

If the seas are rough it seems I can move at 2 knots at persicope depth and be pretty much invisible. Just today (Oct. 1941) I had a destroyer pass within 300 meters of my periscope-depth sub and because the seas were rough she did not detect me even though I was moving at 2 knots.

I know I would have been detected in calm seas at all stop, and when this happens I flank speed/manuever until I am below 160 meters and at that point they don't seem to be able to find me. My IXC can always stand the pressure down to 210m (haven't risked it below that, though I read it is possible) and once I am down there I'm never detected.

Moral of the story seems to be get down and deep after an attack if the seas are calm.

I have some questions regarding this:

1) do the Germans ever get a detection device (bathyspehere ?) that lets them know where the thermal layers actually are? If not, is there a mod that gives your U-Boat this ahistorical edge?

2) I read the U.S. boats had such a device and it is recreated for SHIV. Was it true the U.S. boats did, and the U-Boats did not, have this device in WWII?

3) Is this thermal layer effect recreated in SHIII GWX 2.0/2.1? My guess is yes since it works.

4) What weather conditions change the lower (160?) meter depth of the lower thermal layer?

Thanks for any input you have.









2)

@Catfish

As it turns out, I think that the shallow water detection we were talking about previously seems to have been modelled, either by GWX 2.1 or by SH3 stock (don't really know how much more of that is left after GWX 2.1 and Ubermod). Last night I attacked a convoy in rough seas, but good visibility. On a hunch I chose not to dive right away after the attack and, lo and behold, 3 DD's started searching a good distance out along the probable path of the torp, but never got close to me and my detection meter never went red. I was able to keep the attack going for a full hour at PD without ever getting within 1km of a DD.

In addition, I was able to conduct operations at 1/3 speed and off of silent running in a VIIB in 1940.

Greg

Attacking a destroyer in shallow water = FAIL

it's actually not that hard to take out a lone destroyer in shallow water, since the ai is so predictable. I find that when they know where you are, they speed up to 14kts and circle you at about 700m. Just gotta get them when they steam across your bow or stern...

Even easier, just flank speed directly away from them.... they will fall in right behind you, wait till they get to about 700m and pop a fish under their bow with a mag trigger... if it doesn't sink them it will blind them so they can't ping anymore.

But, what I'm saying is that these DD's couldn't locate me. I wasn't hunting them... they were hunting me, and unable to locate me at all... i was able to unload all 12 fish into this one convoy and never had to evade a single DC. I don't know if it was modelled this way or not, but I just confirmed that it exists...

Different sub (IXD2), different year (1943), and got the same result, I was able to fire and reload for quite some time without the DD's locating me at PD in rough seas. Anyone know if this is intentional, either from GWX or in the original game, or I've got some bug going here?

Greg

Rough seas make a HUGE difference in staying hidden. And being at periscope depth might actually keep you out of the downward-slanted active sonar pings. You'd only be picked up by reflected pings IIRC. So it's not an accident, and it's not terribly unrealistic, to be able to stay hidden in very rough seas.

Frankly, I've been surprised that in a couple of convoy attacks, I've nailed the ships without any visible response from their escorts! :o I presume it's because they don't have any fix on me and/or the sea state is too rough.

Or it could be that you're in the vicinity of a minefield and the escorts are percieving a mine hit? Its one of the messages, and you never quite know whats modelled and whats fluf from those ;).

Or it could just be that they are asleep at the helm.

The most effective tactic I have for breaking destroyer contact is as follows

1. Turn off silent running
2. Get to periscope depth... raise your scope
3. Call flank speed... hold until you KNOW the destroyer has spotted you
4. Immediately when that destroyer starts turning toward you... hit silent running
5. All back slow

They will extrapolate your course at 8kts (whatever your submerged flank speed is) and in the direction you WERE going. I have very little problem evading escorts using this tactic.

Nice idea, I've kinda let all reverse power settings go to disuse because the props are so inefficient at stopping the boat... as little as 30-45 seconds to come to speed, but a full 2-3 min to come to a stop, even though they should have only slightly reduced effectiveness in this situation as they are nearly symmentrical AOA props...

One tactic I've taken to is diving straight under the DD's when I need to evade, as soon as I hear them overhead I go to flank and they drop DC's behind me some distance. Doesn't always work, but at least they can't turn in on you and close the drop line.

Actually, I am not using them to stop... using them to go backwards. Farther away from the DD I am the happier :D

That's an interesting tactic. What version of the game do you play? I also imagine that a brief full rudder would help slow you down too. It would take you a little off-target too.

My legs start to shake when I hear "shallow waters". GWX (I think 1.0 or 1.3) teached me not to hunt in shallow waters... Or even pass through shallow waters. I was surprised and sunk on a shiny day at the US East coast during Op. Paukenschlag and lost my, till now, best Commander ever - because I had no chance of divng deeper than fecking 17m!!! Self Defence was imposible because I was totally out of Torpedoes, heading towards the nearest Milchkuh.

Never ever again I will enter shallow waters! :damn:

Long story short: THERE IS NO "EVASION" IN SHALLOW WATERS!

I think the better way to say it is there is no losing the enemy in shallow waters... Last night SH3 Gen commanded me to infiltrate Portsmith and do as much damage as possible. I was able to avoid getting D/C'd for a good two hours play time until the DD that was tracking me ran into a dock and sunk and I was able to park under a tanker and wait until dark to sneak out of the bay decks awash. Maybe it was luck after all, but there was dead calm weather during the evasive part and the closest I ever got to a charge was about 50m. Yeah, if he hadn't run into the dock, I'd probably have run out of air before i could get out of the harbor, but I did survive GWX 2.1 in Portsmith in 1940...

Edit: BTW, I was not using external cam, but I was using a lot of underwater periscoping along with plenty of quick pops above the surface to keep an eye on my attacker... i don't think I would be able to evade anything by sound alone at this point.