Most of the people I know in Europe have no issue with the US as a country or her people only with the Bush administration who have systematically and cynically ill-used the troops and resources under their command to further their pursuit of power and business interests.

A Government who are the first to cut the size of the military budget when things get tough in "bean counter land" and ban their media from telling the truth about how many body bags are coming home. A Government who flout international law, lie about the reasons for going to war, torture and restrict at will. A Government who cherry-picks items from international conventions to suit their needs rather than adhering to the spirit or letter of them. A government who rewrite the constitution of their country at will, bend and twist international agreements to suit their aims & flagrantly defy international law. By their illegal and immoral actions it is they who have brought the brave men and women of the US armed forces and indeed the country as a whole into disrepeute.

One of the main reasons we went into Iraq was on humanitarian grounds "apparently" to stop the torture inflicted by the "evil" regime of Saddam and yet here we are merrily torturing prisoners in our own backyard, how far we have come, where will this madness end?

Actually I think it's anti-administration bashing. Thats permissible.

I am very glad that there are people in Europe who are willing to make the difference between Americans, America, and the current administration and its policies. It gives me hope that we can repair our reputation.....in time.

Mostly, but i've never seen him talk of anything American in a positive light.

Well thankyou for valuing my point.

See I don't care about what language people speaks. I don't care what colour of skin anyone has, tatooed or not. I don't care weither people are nude or are fully robed. I don't care what beer anyone drinks. Christ if I give a damb what religion people worship. I sure is don't give a rats behind what colour of briefs or boxers people wear too. What I do give a damb about is why are we still acting like savages towards each other. Are we not suppose to be evolve to our stone aged counterparts? The only thing different then and now is we have perfected in a fasters and more efficient ways in torturing and killing. Socially were still living in the stone age clubing each other to death.

People also fail to see that nation bashing is what drives hatred and keeps fears and ignorance. It doesn't matter if is just americans or Germans or chinese or russians or any nations, torture or killing isn't a solution or acceptable at any level. We will never learn from our past if we keep repeating it over and over again.:roll:

Problem is there are powerful interest groups who don't want change. Who like it just the way it is.:nope:

Hm, I think I need to spend a personal word here.

I ALWAYS made that distinction, and over the past years have said that word by word, a million times. No American here must suspect that I am hostile to him just becasue he is american. I may not even be hostile to him if he has another opinion than me. I may be critical on some aspects of american culture as I perceive it and experience it over here, like I am critical on many other, even european, even German things as well, but that is one thing. Personal hostility or even hate is something totally different.

And so I am hostile towards certain ways of some people's behavior. And then it is no problem with their nationality, but with these people personally.

Beyond that, I watch nations in two ways: by what they want to be and claim to be and historically may have meant to be, and by what they actually are in the present, and what they actually are doing. This I do with Germany. With the EU. And with America as well. And in all three cases I see extremely huge differences between claim and history and contemporary reality. That explicitly includes the US, of course.

If that qualifies for a description of US-bashing, okay, so be it: I will be a proud and convinced nation-basher then. But I put my trust in the many reasonable minds here to know it better.

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Guys, I strongly recommend to simply ignore that constant barrage that I can conclude from your answers that Subman has established it (again). Reacting to it is useless, and does not deserve any effort. I have both Subman and August on my ignore list and do not care for them anymore. This is not because of different views or other opinions, but behavior, and unpolite if not cheating style, and playing tricks. You must not defend me against any of them, nor fight in my place with them. Keep on topic, focus on those people with whom you can talk and have an exchange of thoughts in a reasonable way, leave all the personal name-calling out and ignore those not doing so. ;) some of the most interesting conversations I had here were with people who did NOT agree with me, but with whom I nevertheless was able to talk friendly, at least polite, since we both left out personal insults. This does not mean to exclude being clear in what one says. And that kind of conversation is what it is about. Sometimes one can be carried away a bit, or miscommunication simply happens, but I found that in many cases this can be repaired if clearing it up in PMs, or in talking abouzt it in the forum, and eventuqally offer or accept an apology. I have been there, any many of you as well. I have wasted plenty of time dealing with bullying guys, but finally - finally! :lol: - understood that this is what it was indeed: a waste of time. Focus on the good people here, and we all will enjoy our time being spend. In that way and with that spirit I am convinced it is possible to even talk on controversial issues.

On the topic, I cannot see it beeing any more or less legitimate to be set up here like most of the other forum threads as well, the only difference is that it may have a more serious request than many others. So, no need for fighting, as far as I see it.

What a riot! :rotfl:

I've heard over and over again the question of "what would you do if you had a terrorist prisoner who knew about or placed a nuke in a major city and you only had 24 hours to get the info from him".

To me,the answer is that you are screwed. If you torture him(or her) they are likely to give you a false location to end the torture. If you use standard interrogation you are not likely to get any info.

Your only choice is basic police work. Find out where he has been and who he has been with and try to track down the bomb that way...and hope you find it in time.

Torture has never been an effective means of finding out ANYTHING,or do you really believe those women killed in Salem were really witches? People will say anything under torture to get it to stop...even admitting to things they didn't do.

Ahem. Not to take away from your basic point dude but those woman (and man) as Salem were killed because they WOULD'NT admit to something they didn't do.

That is the dilemma, and torture imo is not effective if you have a time limit. but if you have time enough to test the information you get, and in case it was wrong you can come back to the informant - and he knows that you will come back - then it is a different ballgame altogether.


In the history of wars, I assume you can find plenty of example for exactly the opposite as well.

By this I do not wish to say in general "let's allow torture!" I refer to my comments earlier.

The issue of torture isn't really about the accuracy of information that is gained. It's about how a society views itself, and the values it seeks to promote.

Of course, that torture produces unreliable information is a helpful argument for its proscription.

EDIT - Looking at the accusations of anti-Americanism in this thread, I find them more than a little silly. Skybird, for instance, always makes it clear about whom he is referring: elements of government and executive, not the country as a whole.
One could say the same thing about the many threads SB starts about German politics, does that make him anti-German?
Mostly here the talk is of plane crashes, not safe arrivals.