I did test out Sergs VIIA with the simulated torpedo launch with adding to GWX 2.0 in mind
BUT
The game sees the sub as surfaced - not submerged so every ship in convoy will open up on it with surface weapons
Limitation of the work around

Something we couldnt get around so was left out

Hey BBW, you been quiet around these parts recenlty. :arrgh!:

Just formatted PC as it kept freezing
I hate computers

Anywhoo after a damn windows update it started freezing again so have been playing around
Changed the grafix card and updated bios etc etc

Thats where I have been at

:rotfl:

Hopefully yer sorted now......if any replenishment is needed, drop me a line ;)

http://www.itsnature.org/forums/imag...s/wolfmoon.jpg


http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/d...de/wolf-38.gif

Hmmm.
:hmm:
Maybe it's time for me to back stuff up!

Welcome back My Friend!!
:up:

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I'd been meaning to respond to this matter with a little more detail than we usually give... as it is a matter that we are constantly questioned on.

Why there are no submerged wolfpacks in GWX:
(Or "Why don't you guys use existing workarounds?)

1) We are not happy with the currently available workarounds/submerged AI subs for a number of reasons.

2) BBW hit the nail on the head with his earlier post on this thread stating, "The game sees the sub as surfaced - not submerged so every ship in convoy will open up on it with surface weapons." It is a limitation of existing workarounds.

3) When ASW ships SHOOT at an AI sub that they detect as being SURFACED even though it is actually submerged... eventually, enemy vessels close to short range and unload everything they have at the submerged U-boat... causing FPS hits often large enough to crash the game on very good PC's.

4) ASW vessels do not depth charge currently available submerged AI subs... instead opting to shoot at them as described above.

5) The heavy damage models on currently available AI subs make them to be true "Tiger tanks" as a result of being required to absorb the mass of surface ship gunfire directed at them in game.

6) Currently available AI subs must be scripted to be either surfaced or submerged. They cannot transition from one state to the other independantly.

"Well, didn't you guys say that you built an AI sub that can dive when in proximity of the enemy?"

Yes. IIRC we also solved the problem that caused AI subs to be viewed as SURFACED when they submerge... causing enemy surface units to depth charge the new diving AI subs.

Unfortunately, when they receive damage by DC... the game CTD's... and the problem DOES NOT appear to be related to the damage model(s).

Once the problem is sorted... (If the problem is sorted...) It will be an easy matter to make ALL AI subs in GWX dive when in proximity with the enemy. (Axis and Allied both.)

We have already pre-positioned AI subs where they need to be... and they will continue to fight on the surface using deck guns for the time being... until they are replaced by us with new diving AI subs.

Will the new diving AI subs be available with the version 2.1 update for GWX???

No.

When will they be ready???
... and all the Grey Wolves said... "WHEN ITS READY!":lol:
Indeed guys, this may be a problem that we cannot overcome. There is no need to keep asking after you've read this post, and you shouldn't lose any sleep waiting for this one from us.

If you choose to use existing workarounds, and you know how to code externally available AI subs into your installation... feel free to do so AT YOUR OWN RISK! If you encounter problems as a result of non-GWX AI subs and you ask us for advice, we will recommend that you remove them to correct the problem.

IF... and I really do mean IF we are eventually successful with our AI subs plans, they will be made available for GWX users as a very simple JSGME-enabled mod that you can just plug-in, enable, and play. No campaign scripting will be needed as they will be straight one-for-one model replacements...

There is NO internal deadline for these units to be produced... and it may well involve much work that does not result in success.

Now you understand a few of the reasons, regarding our approach to "wolfpacks" in SH3.

I do not view or call that as a limitation, because in RL when the ship crew noticed the sub periscope they would indeed try to open up with everything which was available on the sub in an attempt to hit the sub. That's why I have given the subs raised periscopes and put them at the periscope depth. In fact, this adds more immersion when attacking convoy along with AI subs, it brings the convoy alive. This works fine in stock.

Now, I can imagine that can lead to strang effects in GWX due to the long-range gunnery mod and tweaked sensors so that ships can open up from very long distance.

In any case, the wolfpack mod is more realistic (at least to me) than a bunch of surfaced AI U-boats attacking a convoy during day time with their deck and AA-guns (this was advertised by some people with screenies from GWX 1.03) which exactly what they would avoid doing in RL.

Nor do we feel that your workaround is somehow more realistic for a number of reasons.

Sergbuto, we have not bashed your work... nor did we name you as a cause of problems that are inherent in SH3.

Assuming that we are successful with the plans we've laid in place, we feel our solution will present a better implimentation than the currently available options.

I've simply stated the facts as they relate to our modding efforts and internal standards that have evolved over the course of deveopment.

We aren't going to hammer something into place that we aren't happy with.

See my reply to the BBW's post below.

I have been using my wolfpack mod since the moment it was created, i.e. for a long time, and never had a single CTD due to that reason in stock SH3 or in NYGM even on my weak machine (1.8 GHz processor, 512 RAM). Therefore, this can't be projected on at least one of "existing workarounds" as it says in the title and reasons for "often"-happening CTDs may be related to GWX itself.

In case you did not mean my mod among "existing workarounds", it would make it less confusing if you named "workarounds" meant because otherwise people would also think about my mod.

I do not know about GWX, but submerged AI subs from the wolfpack mod do get depthcharged in stock SH3 or NYGM (that's why the wolfpck mod was created for in the first place). Therefore, again, this statement can't be projected on all the "existing workarounds"

Submerged AI subs from the wolfpack mod get often killed on the first depthcharging pass by the destroyer and most definitely on the second pass. IMO, nothing unusually strong in this respect.

In the end I'd like to say that it is certainly the right of the GWX team to desing their work /mods in accord with their vision and understanding of realism but the statements concerning "existing workarounds" or/and other mods should be more clear so that people do not get confused or mis-informed.

Very well.

I was purposefully obscure about 'existing workarounds' in an effort to prevent offending sensitive modders.

It is for this SOLE reason that I've avoided the explainations for so long, but it does involve repeated inquiries by GWX users that deserve an answer.

Somewhere, an egg was likely to get broken.

What I have described in part, is the behavior of your AI U-boats within the GWX mod framework. Just as you are not familiar with GWX, we do not claim to know all the ins and outs of NYGM mod behavior.

All the same, we are not willing to break other major modding advancements relating to sensors and gunnery, that are quite solid in order to field units that do not function as expected in GWX.

It is a simple matter of cost versus benefit analysis that the average GWX user would not otherwise understand without explaination.

I do not consider what BBW said is bashing my work. He expressed his opinion, I naturally expressed mine. This lets people to form their opinion based on the arguments used or seek additional info.

You mean me, since I was alone when made the wolfpack mod.

I am not so defensive (except for giving appropriate credits) about my mods as some of the people here (let me use the obscure language for the moment :D ) otherwise I would not let the GWX crew to dis-assemble my works (which was used in GWX) into pieces. Because I had a great deal of trouble of answering PMs and e-mails of players which asked whether one or another of my mods are included in GW/GWX or asked for explanations how to make my mod work with GW/GWX for the mods which were already part of GW/GWX. People were not aware that most of my mods are already included in GW/GWX because the credits section refers to various pieces, not to the mod names themselves.

In fact I think it is good that my wolfpack mod is not used in GWX, this way people have options for some variety (those who won't be scared by the "threat" of "often"-happening CTDs :D ) and can evaluate the modder's ideas like it was recently done in detail by Ducimus on the SH4 forum, ideas which would lose their personality while in the big compilation package. :D The choice of the ideas behind the mod is a result of experience, knowledge and testing gained in failures to find various solutions to the problem, since then it's been quite some time and I am still to see anything more realistic produced for use (and I would be the first one to use that, because I loved wolfpacks when played SH3) despite the claims about breakthroughs.

:lol: Play nice boys ... dont fight :rotfl:

@Sergbuto, your AI_WOLFPACK is TOP
 

Hi Sergbuto,
your AI_WOLFPACK_MOD is TOP, it works to me in all Big_Mods that I use (GWX.103, GWX.2.0, WAC, NYGM etc I Play MultiSH3 ), it works also with SH4.
I think, the only Problem for the GWX_DevTeam was to scripted it in GWX 2.0. It´s a "hard work"!
I`m not agree what Kpt. Lehmann wrote:
__________________________________________________ ___________________
2) BBW hit the nail on the head with his earlier post on this thread stating, "The game sees the sub as surfaced - not submerged so every ship in convoy will open up on it with surface weapons." It is a limitation of existing workarounds.

3) When ASW ships SHOOT at an AI sub that they detect as being SURFACED even though it is actually submerged... eventually, enemy vessels close to short range and unload everything they have at the submerged U-boat... causing FPS hits often large enough to crash the game on very good PC's.

4) ASW vessels do not depth charge currently available submerged AI subs... instead opting to shoot at them as described above.

5) The heavy damage models on currently available AI subs make them to be true "Tiger tanks" as a result of being required to absorb the mass of surface ship gunfire directed at them in game.

__________________________________________________ ___________________


When surfaced AI_Uboats are in GWX 2.0 implemented, also can be submerge AI_Uboats. It`s equal surfaced or submerge, they all will be detected and shoot by enemy Ships if they have Wapons, and Destroyers also attack the submerge VIIA with DC ore try to rammed it.
I never have had less Framerates or CTD`s when the submerge AI-UBoats will be attacked. I have tested it first in the SingleMission " Happy Times ", before I scripted it at the Campaign_RND and Campaign_SCR_Layers. There are many Ships and also Destroyers in this Mission and never I have Problems with FPS or CTD`s.

I like your AI_WOLFPACK_MOD and it is not a "Workaround_MOD". I implement it in all Mods I play.:up:

Happy new year and Greetings from

nautilus42

PS: Sorry for my bad English

@Sergbuto.

I think it would be a really good thing to create a GWX 2.0 compatible version of your mod. I once took your mod and simply exchanged the scripted GWX 1.03 Typ VII A subs with yours in the campaign file. That was little work and worked quite well and I twice encountered wolfpacks in the Atlantic. However that was about a year ago and I'm not entirely sure WHAT entries I changed. But I'll look into it and with you permission, and with the permission of the GWX team hopefully can release a compatible solution. This way everyone can decide for themselves whether it works for them or not.

Normal practice, when a player plays some mod/compilation package, is to ask some info (say about scripted wolfpacks) people who worked on the mod/compilation package, in this case, the GWX team. However, they clearly indicated that if the player is in for an advice, he/she must use only surfaced AI wolfpacks (good luck to the player who decides to join such a convoy-attacking wolfpack on the surface during day time ;) ) until they are able to produce properly working diving subs, because I guess when enemy vessels unload all the guns onto the surfaced AI U-boat (which BTW is also my idea how to make moving surfaced AI subs :) ) instead of submerged one, there are no FPS hits large enough to crash the game :) on very good PC's in GWX mod framework. So I guess, it would be difficult for you, Woof1701, to get info concerning scripted wolfpacks from the GWX team.

I do not play SH3 any more and I never played GW/GWX, Therefore I can only refer you to what was discussed before on implementation of my wolfpack mod and on getting wolfpacks in RND and SCR layers.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...light=wolfpack

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94400

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...light=wolfpack

There are some changes to what was discussed though. This time, I was asked for a permission to use my Library pack v2.0 in GWX. I do not know whether it was dis-assembled or modified to elliminate the weapon of wolfpack subs or used as it is. If I see the respective files I can tell for sure. I guess you can try a test mission with subs from the wolfpack and see if they can "torpedo" any ship without bringing in the Library pack v2.0.

Well, that's the problem when raising the level bar so high as GWX does :D

Please consider releasing the add-on (Even as unofficial and unfinished stuff) with INDESTRUCTIBLE subs that have only few torpedoes :yep: The wolfpack tactics were very important in that they caused the escorts to scatter and gave other U-Boats the chance to sneak in and shoot the merchants. Facing a fully escorted convoy of 1942 by yourself is simply too tough currently, and those AI subs would give the player a chance to attack -as in real life- . Simply do not add them 1943 onwards, or add them without teeth (No torpedoes) so they do not artifically raise the sinkings.

Thanks for your efforts :up:

There are AI subs attached some RND convoy groups
Some as leader so you will get a radio report from the sub itself ( convoy report looks round not square )
There are some historical convoys scripted on the SCR inc wolfpack attacks
There are also single\groups of AI subs in random patrols along\across heavy convoy routes

Yes Sergbuto did grant me permission to use his library pack along with the VIIA sub but as we didnt use the sub we didnt use the library pack AFAIK

As for FPS hits yes you can get large FPS hits from surfaced AI subs too if they are among a convoy but AI subs seem to suffer from a speed issue
As they are part of a RND group they are subject to the same speed as the ships
Trouble is they dont run at that speed
ie
Set a AI sub a speed of 8 knots and it wont run at that but at 6\7
Therefore when the convoy enters player render range ( 50 km or so ) the subs start slipping back which is why its usually the escorts that seem to suffer damage as they slip back to attack while the merchants plow on
So you dont tend to get any FPS hits as only the escorts firing

Ask and ye shall receive :up:

As to Nautilus

Not being funny but its an easy job to either convert an existing unit to a VIIA or add more
No harder than adding the XIV in historical context

F.e. German guns were part of the library pack and they are in, at least according to the credits section, if I understood everything correctly.

Yes, both surfaced and submerged subs have this issues. For me it was about 3 knots between setup and actual speeds. Good to remember when scripting AI subs in.

Ah yes you are correct on the Ge guns
Ge depth charge racks too IIRC in that library pack

Yes its a good thing to remember the speeds
Ok in the SCR but as part of a RND group tis a pain
Not really sure why they run slower than speed set