Thanks I need all the help I can get, after estimating the speed & showed as 5 knots I pressed the red send to TDC icon, so I fail to know what happened!
What do you mean, when the speed is estimated the dial automatically points to 5 knots, I then press send to TDC button, isn't that all that's required, is this wrong?:-?
I don't know how to get the range correct with the stadimeter, I zoom in for a better view and align the waterline of the ship with the top of the mast, left click to release it then click the red send to TDC button, so I fail to know what I'm doing wrong.:doh:
That may explain that!:dead:
How?
Where is this displayed?
By the time I do all this the ship would be long gone! I will try to practice the steps in the navigation school.:yep: 2 days I have been trying this & both times I've ended up with a head ache!:cry:

That's the correct way. Click that button a few times as well, just to be sure :)

That's also correct. One thing you might be doing wrong is the identification. Your target is a Mogami Heavy Cruiser in the torpedo training mission. With map contact updates on you can also easily check your solution from the attack map once the TDC is on. See the white cross+line about halfway between you and the target in your screenshot? That's where your TDC thinks the target is, and it should of course be on or near your target for the torpedoes to hit.


Look at the ship and plug in your best estimate of the AOB via the AOB input wheel. For example if the bow of your target is pointing right in your periscope, you input 90 degrees starboard(right) as the AOB. If the bow is pointing left, then you input 90 port(left). I assure you, you'll do a lot better estimating it yourself than sticking to these guidelines. A rough estimate is good enough at this point, since we'll be updating it shortly anyway.

It's shown in the message bar along with the speed.

It doesn't take more than a few seconds once you get the idea, which you can see in the WernerSobe video. As someone already said, the torpedo training mission is not the best place for practice, since there's very little time to act. The target starts so near you, that you really need to know your stuff to hit it before it's way past. I'm currently at work, but once I get home I can do you a guide with screenshots that walks you through the torpedo training mission.

Hi Fincuan, I have actually been setting the correct ship ID, one of my biggest problems is that my nerves go to pieces trying to rush everything, I will have to relax more, I do wonder though how I can be this bad (thick)!
That would be something!! I should probably give this mission a miss but I hate being beaten! I'm stubborn, I see that everyone else can do it so why not me!:lol:
Thank you, that would be great,:yep: sorry to put you out though!!:oops:

Just to clarify this a bit: Inputting the AOB once you know the course only takes a few seconds, but it takes longer to gather the data required to find out the course :)

Das Tutorial
 

Ok, here we go as promised. I'm using TMaru 1.7.2, RSRDC and a few other mods, so things might look a bit different, but they still function all the same. Because of TMaru I had to remove the damn plane from the mission, since it would start strafing me and altert the Mogami :lol:

1. Identify the target. In the Sub School torpedo training mission we have a nice, fat Mogami Heavy Cruiser in the sights.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image01.jpg
   
2. First observation. Lock the ship, get the range with the stadimeter and click send to tdc ONCE(Confirmed, once is enough). Lower the scope after clicking "send to tdc".
   
3. Wait... I waited a bit over a minute. The more you wait the more precise your readings will be, but then again you don't have much time in this mission. Now is a good time to set up the torpedoes and open the tube doors.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image02.jpg
   
4. Second observation. Again remember to click "Send to tdc" only once. Lower the scope.
   
5. Go to the speed dial and hit the "Estimate speed and course" button
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image03.jpg
   
6. Send the speed(9 knots in this case) to the tdc by clicking the "Send to tdc" button once, and note the course from the message box(101 degrees)
   
   
   
   
   
   
   http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image04.jpg
   
7. Go to the AOB input dial and raise the scope. Turn the wheel to what you estimate as the AOB and click the send "Send AOB to TDC" button. As you can see, I estimated the AOB to be about 78 degrees starboard. Lower the scope.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image05.jpg
   
8. Look at the target wheel(upper left corner). That wheel shows the target as seen from our sub(the bottom wheel), and our sub is ALWAYS at the bottom. By looking at where the bow of the target(zero on the inner wheel) points on the outer wheel, we can now see what the TDC thinks as the course of the target. In this case the TDC has calculated that an AOB of 78 degrees starboard would mean that the target's course is about 82 degrees. From our two observations we, however, know that the course is really 101 degrees. Time to make some adjustments.
   
9. Still looking at the target wheel, we can see that a course of 101 degrees would require the bow of the miniature ship to point more towards our sub, meaning the AOB should be smaller than the 78 degrees I previously estimated. To achieve this, I roll the AOB wheel until the marker at the bottom shows something smaller, 50 degrees in this case, and click send to tdc.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image06.jpg
   
10. After our re-estimated AOB the target wheel now shows the course as 110 degrees, which means that we went too low with the estimate of 50 degrees. We now need to roll the AOB wheel back a few degrees, and send it to the tdc again.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image07.jpg
    
11. There we go! The target wheel now shows a course of 101 degrees, which is what we wanted all along. We can now enable the tdc. Note that the screenshot is actually taken after the next step.
    
12. Make one more observation, and again adjust the AOB until the target wheel points to 101 degrees. If you have map contact updates on and the periscope is up, you can easily check the quality of the solution from the attack map. As you can see, the thicker end of the small black line, which is where the TDC thinks that the target is, is almost on top of our target. When we observe it for a few seconds, we can see that it also stays there. This looks like a decent solution, so I decide to fire. I make one final observation to get the latest range and bearing, and again adjust the AOB as we have done above a few times already. Then it's time for... ROHR EINS, LOS! ROHR ZWEI, LOS! ROHR DREI, LOS! ROHR VIER, LOS!
    
    
    
    
    
    http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image08.jpg
    
13. KABOOM! Since these are early-war american torpedoes, the result was what we expected: two duds and one with a gyro problem sending it off to the right.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    http://staufa.bounceme.net/files/tutorial/image09.jpg
    
14. A final check of the attack map after the torpedoes have hit. As you can see, the TDC's marker is still almost on top of the target, which means that our solution was spot on.

A few things to remember:

• Keep the scope up as briefly as possible
• Click "Send to TDC" after changing anything
• Remember to enable the TDC after you have all the data.
• Adjust the AOB after each observation
• Make one final observation right before firing

Have printed this out, will study first, then chew my nails!:lol:
Will report back with good news soon I hope!:yep:
Many thanks again.:up::up:

One last queery before I try my luck!:yep:
Do I have to turn the TDC off first?:)

Re-read Step 11.

Nice post\explanation Fincuan :yep::up:


RDP

Thats right it was previously off whilst doing Range, then turned on, now the range is to be done again, do I have to turn TDC off do range again (use stadimeter & send to TDC) then turn it back on.:-?

No, keep it on until the target is down. It's just off during the initial data gathering, because keeping it on might screw the "Estimate course and speed" function. As soon as you have all the basic data, you switch it on and keep it on. I don't even turn it off when switching targets in a convoy, since there's really no need to. Plug in the new data and voila, you have a completely new solution.

Waiting to hear your results :up:

Ahh I see the light!:yep: It's only for the speed estimation that it is switched off! and during a convoy they are all doing the same speed, just have to switch targets get new ship ID, range & set AOB till TDC shows correct target course, would be near the same till they all started to zig zag!:) Well no excuses to avoid putting it off!:doh::D

There you go! Spot on about the convoy, that's exactly why the TDC can remain on. You can even ID the ships beforehand, and the game will remember the ID as long as the ship stays withing certain range from you(don't know what that is, but it never seems to be a problem in a convoy situation). It makes switching targets a lot faster when you don't have to flip through the recognition manual in the middle of an attack :)

Success!!:D This rusty old fart finally gets it!:lol:
One problem I'm having though is speed, each time I have done the Estimate Speed my dial allways shows this ship (Mogami Heavy Cruiser) to be doing 5 to 6 knots.
in the first attempt the speed read 6 knots & the torpedo's just hit the rear end! In the second attempt the speed read 5 knots, I just set it to 9 knots as yours read & this time hit amidships, I tried a third time & the reading was 6 knots again, something is amiss but I don't know what.
This is what I do (I'm sure I got it right):
1) set speed for 1/3rd and hit Z key.
2) go to scope & raise, identify ship, click tick box.
3) lock on, use stadimeter and send to TDC.
4) lower scope, wait for about 1 minute during this time open 4 tubes.
5) raise scope, lock on, use stadimeter, send to TDC, lower scope.
6) go to speed dial & click on "Estimate Speed".
This allways comes to around 6 knots, and I say nuts!:lol:
Any idea what I might be doing wrong, can a setting or mod effect this?
Has the Estimate Speed button changed from version 1.0, when I check the SH4 manual page 38 at the top it reads quite different!
Thanks for all your help Fincuan.:yep:

When using the stadimeter, are you placing the waterline of the image of the ship at the top of its highest mast?

Do you have the position keeper off while making your two observations? (it looks like from your previous comments the answer is yes)

Are you at battlestations? (I don't think this would cause that much error, but your crew is more accurate in calcuations while at battlestations)

You can also click the Estimate Speed button several times to get different estimates from the crew. You might try that and see if all the speeds are around 6 knots.

Anyway, whatever it is it's something minor. You definitely have the basic idea down.

Oh, one more thing. The Estimate Speed button didn't even work until patch 1.3, so ignore the manual. The way you are doing it is correct except for some small issue.

I think there is something wrong with the school . It works in campaign though .

@ Powerthighs:
Yes just as in Fincuan's tutorial shows, ships waterline overlay image on the top mast of the correctly identified ship.:yep:
Definitely, the red light is not on, I only set it on after the speed is calculated.
Probably not, only set for silent running, I'm too used to SH3, there this is not an option, would this make a difference?:oops: I'll give it a try, can someone tell me the hot key please - too lazy to look it up!;)
Thanks, I'll ignore it.:yep:
@ Sober:
I'd like to think that but Fincuan's tutorial even shows the correct speed, maybe I should calculate it a couple of times & get the overall before turning the TDC on.:yep:

Gee I even sound like I know what I'm talking about!!:smug: ..... :88)

Nice to hear it worked! One more member of the manual TDC club then :)

I have no idea what's wrong with your speed estimates, because judging from what you wrote you are doing everything correctly. Do you have the same problem in other single missions and/or the campaign too? Is the course still correct, even though the speed is not?

Estimate speed accuracy
 

If for some reason one of the ranges is wrong, or if both ranges are wrong the estimate speed button will be wrong. Because of that I always estimate speed from my plot and forget all about that. In practice the most accurate way to estimate speed is from your plot using the 3 minute rule, 6 minute rule or the WernerSobe method of timing how long the ship takes to travel its own length. Werner's method depends on accurate identification of the ship, though, so it also is subject to error.

Like most things American, the conventional manual targeting method uses multiple steps, each of which is capable of introducing fatal error into the process, each of which must be perfectly executed in order for the torpedo to impact the target. I find stadimeter errors particularly vexing and don't even use the blasted thing outside of 2500 yards. The basic problem with standard US manual targeting procedure is that it is not sufficiently error tolerant. In combat errors are a given.

That is why my default approach technique is the Dick O'Kane procedure, a modfiication of the Fast 90 of U-Boat fame, but adapted for American TDC without the PK. The reason the Germans had a higher hit percentage of torpedoes shot is that they understood that in combat the most important characteristic of a successful strategy is error tolerance.

My tutorial on the Dick O'Kane technique is fraught with error, as arronblood correctly roasted me about later. But in spite of my ham-handedness both torpedoes impacted the target within 20 feet of their aiming point.

In order to be successful you must first know how much error you can tolerate, compare that to the amount of error you have (in your best judgement) and shoot or don't shoot (or shoot a wider spread if you're not getting another chance), For conventional targeting, this means extensive use of the attack screen to ensure that your solution is somewhere reasonable compared to the actual target position, heading and speed.

With conventional US targeting you must accurately determine target ID, range (stadimeter), speed and AoB. With Dick O'Kane you need only target course and speed. That errors increase catastropically with the number of parameters needed to obtain a solution. Is it any wonder US subs had so many more misses by a 3/1 ratio?

Dick O'Kane had it right. The system was designed to guarantee unacceptable error. And he was the acknowleged master of conventional targeting technique.