First off--I want you to know that this project has actually been most influenced by your Trigger Maru mod. Your excellent work has set me --again--on the dark path of modding ;).

The reason I am decreasing the angle of the sonar (more shallow) is to create a blind zone. I've found that with the deep delving sonar, small escorts like SC's and MS's could just whip around an immediately reaquire me. Adding the range created a situation where (in ideal sonar conditions) I was always being located and attacked again immediately. Too fast for my taste. By shallowing it up, I now have a blind zone ~500 meters out from the escort. Outside of being more historical--it also creates a slower pursuit by the escort. The deeper delving sonar was something the allies did (Q apparatus) but the Japanese never figured out. If they had, we would have lost a lot more submarines during the war.

What you've said is all correct--no argument--you know your poop :lol:! What I'm pursuing though creates a scenario where attacking a convoy is merely an introduction to a slow tango to follow. And it's working pretty well so far but as I've stated, needs a little more tuning.

Your three points for getting the escort to go "Active" are also my experience. I plan to look into that later to see if I can change it by making a suedo radar/sonar. After all--their radar is always on.

THanks for your input! Your thoughts on the subject are Very Welcome!

Something similar was done a while ago for SH3. This lead to battles in which the sub could survive hours of terrifying depth-charging. It's definitely a good idea for SH4.

Don't forget the other half: the kill radius should not be more than 7.5 meters (25 feet) for any standard depth charge.

Agreed. It's much more fun to be pummelled into submission than to get that straight out kill shot :lol:! Ducimus has done good work with his DC's--they have a much larger Xmeters range where they explode. It compensates well for the AI always knowing how deep you are.

Ah yes. Ask any submariner. Nothing beats a good pounding by depth charges ;)...

The kill radius, and the damage radius in general are related, but not the same.

There is a range of damage the DC can do. Say MinEF 100 to MaxEF 200 damage points.

There are 2 ranges, Min, and Max. At Min, the DC does 100% of the random value generated (between 100 and 200 in this example). In addition, at MinRadius it does general hitpoint damage to the sub. Between the min and max radii, the damage drops from 100% to 0%. The threshold for sub damage has to do with armor level factor (zones) and armor. For a typical sub this means 100 damage points. If the example above did 200 damage, then at MinRadius it would do 200, well above the 100 needed and would seriously mess with the sub. Halfway between Min and Max Radius it would drop below 100, and the sub doesn't take damage. Somewhere in that range (probably armor related for the guns themselves) you see the deck gun taking damage.

I've seriously upped the damage values of the DCs, and I have yet to get reliable 1 DC kills at any range, even in contact. The reason the stock DCs are pretty nasty is that they have a huge max radius. The plus to this is that they damage multiple compartments on the sub, even though each takes lighter damage than you might expect even with a contact detonation. I think the basic problem is that subs are grossly too strong.

tater

There is a big problem with the depth error setting being high, though. It's the reason the bloody escorts blow their sterns off.

In reality, they should only blow at 30, 60, or later 90m for Type 95 DCs, and at ~7.5m intervals for Type 2 DCs. The AI overrides the detonation depth setting, so that doesn't work. (I had a way worked out to make them work right had the damn setting worked).

Depth error cuts both ways though, if you are diving hard when they drop, some will still detonate at your lower depth.

It's tough to balance, that's for sure.

tater

Very tough to balance.

Tight depth accuracy?
Pin point dropping AI.

Loose depth accuracy?
AI blowing his own stern off.

Large damage radius?
DC's become very deadly.

Small damage radius?
Not enough component damage

Smaller still damage radius?
DC's become nothing more then noisemakers.

I went larger than TM for the larger type 2 DCs than TM (MaxRadius). I used 25m as I recall.

The Max radius can actually be somewhat large because below 100 damage, nothing happens. If max is only 200, and the max radius is set to 10m, min to 5m, the DC will only do ANY damage at 7.5m, farther than that, it does nothing at all. I think they should do SOME damage out to between 10 and 15m, so if the min is ~5, the max should be ~20-25m.

Upping the EF values helps as well.

Getting a single DC to kill you is damn near impossible, even if it blows up in contact or actually inside the sub (they have no collision node, so they pass through the sub).

Adding a collision node so that DCs will bounce off your hull is on my list of things to do... imagine the fear hearing THUNK! Worse, imagine it falls into the bridge and gets stuck there, lol.

tater

:hmm:

I need to rethink my AI schema maybe. Im just afraid of opening up the max radius because im making the AI a bit more touchy. If i up one, i have to dumb down the other to offset it to so speak.

I know someone who experienced this tater :o. He tells a good story.

This conversation you guys are having about DC's tells it all. Frankly--I like the variable depth that Ducimus uses except that it causes them to premature when they hit the water once in a while--would armoring the DC Racks help that? I don't like that escorts know your depth so well. They never guess. DC damage rating is always a touchy subject and one that is very subjective. We know that in reality--to sink a sub a dc had to go off within 25 feet of the hull. Maybe a work around would be this--create 3 levels of dc mods--wimpy/moderate and nasty. If they are stand-alone mods, people can easily make up their own mind. And if anyone would complain about that, it would be easy to ignore ;)!

Well--I'm about ready for another test. I got sunk in my last one (and that is a rare thing).

Cheers!

They key in all of this, is making the AI responsive, sans pin point DC's.
The main variables to accomplish this is a looser accuracy with smaller damage radius.

What if you if you made the sink rate a little slower? The forward momentum of the player sub (at extreme depth) would (in theory) offset a tighter accuracy rating.

My DC mod changes the type 95s to 1.9m/s like they were in RL.

Standard in game is 3m/s.

I thought they were slower. I used to count to 10 for every 100 feet. Glad to know it's not my counting ;).

I just finished a test. I took me from my last post until now to get away (subtract 10 minutes for a smoke break--I go outside for that). Setting I used this time were: Elevation 92/100, Range 2400, Sensitivity 0.025. I think it was a bit on the easy side considering elite escort and perfect sonar conditions for him. I'll try another run with sensivity set to 0.027--starting to narrow it down.

Note: It wasn't real easy getting away but I think the elite should be a little more tough. 2 elites probably would have been a serious buggar though...

Edit: I just went into edit the sensor file and noticed that Sensitivity was set to 0.03. Apparently 2 is lowest decimal places allowed.

Double Edit: Just finished another test and the .028 stuck this time. Think I'll take up another notch or two yet.

Depth Charges: With the larger blind zone in this test, I think it might be ok to expand the damage radius a little. By playing your cards right, you have a little more time IF you're deep.

Well--I haven't patched to 1.4 yet. I want TM installed for my testing so I'm waiting (Take your time Ducimus--don't forget to eat :up:). But I've learned a few things in the last couple test runs.

For the record, setting changes I'm currently using for Type 93-3A sonar:
Min Range=200 (was 0)
MaxRange=2400 (was 1600)
MinElevation=92 (was 90)
MaxElevation=100 (was 112)
Sensitivity=0.028 (will robably use .026 on next test)

0 wind

Getting away from 1 escort is tough with these settings. Getting away from 2 Elites is a nightmare. Tried a team of 1 Elite DD and 1 Competent SC this evening and it was very challenging. Still tweaking Sensitivity for the magic number.

After the 1st run or 2, the escorts lengthen their run after dropping dc's. Apparently they know they have to be farther away to locate me and so they compensate for it. They definitely coach each other IF they are part of the same group. I tried 2 separate escorts in a test that were independant. 1 lost me and never found me again even though the other still had me located. Possible it was a "glitch" but I knd of doubt it.

Depth Charges still work :shifty:. I think pulling in the +/-17 a couple meters might be OK and possibly extending the MaxRadius for damage might be better too. But that can all come later after I'm satisfied with the sonar model (I can tweak those for testing myself). It's still very dangerous though and they manage to rock the boat fairly often.

The way this mod changes the sim has also changed my tactics. I won't say how because others may find their own way of doing it. At this point, I don't want to influence that aspect.

I've played a test where I attacked a small convoy. I now find myself planning an escape route as much as I think about sinking ships :hmm:.

I'll keep testing some more and wait for the falderal from the 1.4 release to subside--and give Ducimus a chance to grab a sandwich. When any of you want me to post a small test package, let me know. I'd appreciate some input at this stage but can certainly wait. The mod will include the following file changes:

AI_sensors
amb_subinterior
Creaking (1, 2, 3 & 4)
DepthChargeFromSubmarine
Sonar

The Audio Changes are important. Please try them. They really help too, as you'll be able to hear the escorts better during their attack runs.

And AVGWarhawk? Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it ;)!

Peto

BTW, the DC shake is totally unrelated to damage. It's set to ~60m I think.

Yep--Thank Heavens or I'd really be toast :lol: !!! DC settings are kind of secondary for me right now except I've put a lot of thought into your ideas for K-guns to replace racks, patterns with Kgun angles and ranges. Is there anyway to set a randomizer that could give a depth charge loadout a +/-10? I think I know what it would take to do it but it's beyond my capability right now.

I can build you a great computer--just don't ask me to program it!

The only way to randomize the loadouts is to make many launchers, each with a different load, and use them on different ships. SHIPS can have loadouts, too, you know, like planes (planes have a choice of bomb loads). I can make Minekaze1, Minekaze2, etc. They need to be explicitly placed in the editor, but they take up no new rec manual places, and they are identical other than their loadouts. A player will never know which one they face.

tater

I hadn't thought of that and that's exactly what I wanted. I'd like to Not know exactly how many dc's an escort has. I'm also moving closer to your camp for keeping the number of dc's carried closer to historical.

Early War: Destroyers carried about 18, later upped to 36 and sometimes as high as 50. I'm not sure when the numbers changed but I think we could make a good guesstimate. Destroyer Escorts (Etorofu Class) Carried about 60 and could be as high as 120. Kaikoban (entered service last half of the war) carried 120. Subchasers (limited space) started at 18 and later 36 (50 max for these guys I think). A little creative thinking (which you excel in :up:) can fill gaps for Etorofus and Kaikobans. Your Minesweepers and Auxinlary SC's leap to mind.

These numbers represent the 250 pound variety. The larger "600 pounders" used later in the war meant less DC's on the racks. K-guns always used the lighter dc's. Can the game handle using 2 different depth charge types on the same escort?

Personally, I think the minimum reload time for escorts should be 10 minutes. The max should probably be 20.

Depth Charge Patterns: Thinking of an escort with 4 K-Guns and 2 racks--Port side KGuns: Forward aimed to 300 range 150/Aft aimed 260 range 75 (bearings relative). Starboard: Forward aimed 60 range 75/aft 100 range 150.

Escorts with 2 Kguns: 270/90 Range 150.

And that could change by the loadout too. I think a pattern should cover as large an area as possible while trying to stay with historical weapon capabilities.

Just some thoughts. I'm certainly open to ideas.

From navweaps, it appears that the heavier (162kg) type 2 could be thrown since it lists the range "When used with the Type 95 DC..." that implies use with another DC type, and the only other type used was the type 2, though I suppose it could be the 105kg and 110kg type 2s, not the 162kg version.

Perhaps I need to look into that.

K guns should probably only fire to 105m with a ~100kg weapon (perhaps slightly less with the 105 and 110). The Y guns have the 75m range only when tossing 2 DCs, and they are broken in game and only fire one direction.

It appears you've been thinking about this considerably more (and longer) than I have. So I think I'm just going to leave the dc's to you and pitch in ideas if you ask for them.

Frankly tater--I have complete confidence that your solutions would be great even without my imput :up:! I'll keep tweaking sonar for now. It's just that tweaking sonar inevitably results in thinking about depth charges :shifty:.

Cheers!

Any and all comment is great. The more people looking at things, the more likely we are to come up with novel (and useful) ideas.

tater