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-   -   Studying the AI & fully dynamic game sessions (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124809)

MarkShot 11-27-07 06:00 PM

SC's editor does not have scripts.

I think the one thing it has missing in DW is user actions. You can check if particular controls have been pressed or certain masts have been raised.

It was probably implemented in order to script the interactive tutorials that came with SC. DW just had videos, but no interactive tutorials.

The SC ones were similar to the high quality interactive tutorials that came with games like Long Bow. Come to think of it, it was probably a requirement of Electronic Arts at that time.

Molon Labe 11-27-07 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot
So, are the only serious mission/hardcore players all playing DW MP?

DW is regarded to have better general characteristics than SCXIIc?

SP is regarded as no way to create really and interesting/challenging scenarios?

That's what I am getting from reading between the lines. I must say that I have gone through 30-50 SC 1.08 scenarios and I have generally been dissappointed with play and challenge. Thus, my inclination that despite having a written a scenario or two that I could do, at least, as well if not better.

AI is always going to have its limitations, even with quality doctrines controlling it. The general rule for SP is that challenge and dynamics are opposing factors. To create a serious threat for the player, you have to set up the mission to increase the likelihood of detection, put the platform up against its natural enemies, and/or put the platform at a tactical disadvantage against its enemies. By making the mission dynamic, the player is able to dictate part of the tactical picture because the player can think ahead, plan, and adapt. The player is also going to win in a "fair fight" by virtue of better detection and engagement capability.

So if you're looking for a dynamic fight that is also challenging, your best bet is human opposition in the context of a rather open-ended MP scenario.

SP is still good for creating specific scenarios, though. There's nothing wrong with thinking up new situations (or hearing about real life ones) and seeing how they would play out.

MarkShot 11-27-07 06:22 PM

Interesting point. I had not considered that dynamic behavior and challenge or pulling in opposite directions, but you are right.

Also, there are mainly two ways to challenge the player:

(1) Overwhelm - numbers exceed the players ability to counter or events happen too fast.

(2) Outclass - the player is at a disadvantage; maybe has a platform with half the sensor range as the enemy.

So, going back to dynamic that leaves the designer with not really using dynamic creation/placement of objects, but instead having a small fixed set precisely scripted missions where only one is actually instantiated and the player doesn't know and cannot quickly determine which.

Molon Labe 11-27-07 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot
Interesting point. I had not considered that dynamic behavior and challenge or pulling in opposite directions, but you are right.

Also, there are mainly two ways to challenge the player:

(1) Overwhelm - numbers exceed the players ability to counter or events happen too fast.

(2) Outclass - the player is at a disadvantage; maybe has a platform with half the sensor range as the enemy.

If you want to see a perfect example of all three factors I mentioned before used to screw a SP player in the ass, hard, check out Bill's Race of the Cripples. Use LW/Ami so that the helo that launches has a working MAD and so the Udaloy doesn't overshoot when it fires its Silexes.

Quote:

So, going back to dynamic that leaves the designer with not really using dynamic creation/placement of objects, but instead having a small fixed set precisely scripted missions where only one is actually instantiated and the player doesn't know and cannot quickly determine which.
I tried using this design philosophy for an MP FoF scenario about sinking supply ships... after sinking more than 12 hours into it to complete only about 1/6 of the work (just to set it up, not counting testing and revisions) I tabled it indefinitely.

I think RSBs and DLs are great time savers whenever you can use them, but obviously their utility is very limited, especially when you have a specific destination in mind (including moving targets) or when you're trying to spawn formations instead of lone platforms. Thus, DGs tend to be the best option for creating different starting positions. Rather than create entirely separate instantiations, whenever possible, I would try to use layered DGs and probability inclusions to randomly select dynamic design elements individually. You get more dynamicity (yes, I made that word up) for your buck that way.

FERdeBOER 11-28-07 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe
AI is always going to have its limitations, even with quality doctrines controlling it. The general rule for SP is that challenge and dynamics are opposing factors. To create a serious threat for the player, you have to set up the mission to increase the likelihood of detection, put the platform up against its natural enemies, and/or put the platform at a tactical disadvantage against its enemies. By making the mission dynamic, the player is able to dictate part of the tactical picture because the player can think ahead, plan, and adapt. The player is also going to win in a "fair fight" by virtue of better detection and engagement capability.

Of course fighting aginst a human is allways better, and in single player, a good mission is great... but only a few times, then You know all You need about the scenario You will not play it anymore (except if you really love it). But the point is to find a way to create an scenario (or better, a campaign) so dynamic that can be played many times, even by its creator.

I'm talking as submarine (Akula) player:
Is by far more dificult to design, but I think a dynamic mission can be challenge without overwelming the player or putting him in disadvantage. The point is that only the uncertainy of who, where and how many enemies are out there puts you in a little disadvantage. Also the fact that you have to choose a variety of weapons because you don't know what will you need untill the mission message arrives, or that you may have to choose different ways to reach one location, gives the mission a good challenge.
Also the uncertainy of knowing that maybe that enemy sub you found last time can be close... or maybe is at 20 miles... or maybe it isn't this time... or maybe it is, but this time the mission of that submarine is other than killing you... maybe an ally this time? :hmm:

It will be hard, VERY hard, but a good dynamic scenario will be great :yep:

(I'm going now to play now those Bill scenarios :arrgh!: )

edit: what does RSBs and DLs means? Sorry, I'm not English...

To be 11-28-07 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suBB
To Be (btw good dive guys did you prep the 53cm correctly?)

Yes!

Molon Labe 11-28-07 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FERdeBOER

edit: what does RSBs and DLs means? Sorry, I'm not English...

Random start boxes and Dynamic locations.


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