Nope. I brought them up as an example how much the quality strikes the performance. I bet it is the same with thermal imagers.

Any RHA data on the 2A5 resp. 2A6 ? I guess both will have largely the same armour.

In that one canadian video that one guy told that the ammo is stored in the tower but isn't there also an ammo load in the hull like in all predecesors ?

there is a ready rack with, I think, 15 rounds in the turret, and the rest of the rounds are stored in a separate compartment at the backside of the turret. It is a security feature, in case of fire. The compartment can be separated from the turret in case of an emergency, you can see the small "gap" between it and the turret on photos. So, every 15 shots or so, the tank has run dry and the gunner needs to relocate ammo from the separate compartment to the ready rack. I think this was not simulated in SB1.

Supplying new rounds from external stocks into a tank, btw, takes much more time in the Abrams, than in the Leo 2.

Had the Leo 2 since the beginning the ammo stored in the tower ?

Also what is not fully clear to me is, do the Leo 2A5 also have a thermal imager for the peri, like the Leo 2A6 ?

And what is the overall ammo load of the Leo 2A5 ?

Had the Leo 2 since the beginning the ammo stored in the tower ?

Not sure, but I guess so for the ready rack. Leo2A4 was the first being produced in large quantities, the earlier were prototypes and test models. I think I mixed it up, anyway, or did not express myself clear enough last time. The back part at the turret IS the ready rack, in a separate compartment, with the other rounds being stored below the turret, so you are right. That's why the turret needs to swing into a 5 clock position so that the gunner can access them. the M1 does not need to do that, but the reloading takes much longer in the M1. One could imagine tacical scenarios where you wish to access the remaining ammunition withiout needing to face the enemy the vulnerable flank and rear of the turret, although you would prefer to find a safe place first before reloading the rack. One could also imagine situations where the lesser time in the Leo 2 is of the essence. But I think all on all, in most situations (since you would check for a safe position in most situations anyway), the German procedure is the better one.


Also what is not fully clear to me is, do the Leo 2A5 also have a thermal imager for the peri, like the Leo 2A6 ?

The peri is for the TC only. TC has both the optical daylight peri, and thermal as a separate unit. Both are two different devices. Both are working independant from the gunner's sights. It works differently from what you know in the 2A4. TV overriding gunner also works different, and easier in the 2A5. One needs to love the 2A5, really.

And what is the overall ammo load of the Leo 2A5 ?

42 or 43 rounds. 42 I think.

Nope, I think they were build in even greater quantities than the Leo2A4 but were upgraded later to the 2A4 variant.

http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_kpz_leopard_2-a.htm

What means seperate ? They are not both installed in the peri ?

As I understand it, in the Leo 2A4, the peri view is a pure day light optics and the thermal imager is rigidly installed in the turret and always points into the direction of the gun. So when the commander wants to look with it elsewhere he has to overrider the gunner and turn the turret.

But when I understood it right the Leo 2A5/A6 has a second thermal imager installed in the peri, besides the day light optics, so that the TC has it's own independant one. Is this reflected in SBP ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JxuUbcaQHQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZBN17NIzvQ

The gunners thermal imager is not independen from its sight. It's just that since the 2A5, the leos have a second thermal imager in the peri. Isn't this reflected in SBPE ?

It makes me wonder is this a thermal imager or an Restlichtverstärker ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B30uv96TQvc

Earlier Bradleys had red screens for their thermal sights, and later they turned to green. I strongly assume it is thermal images the video shows - but I will not bet my life on it. the Bradley is equipped with thermals, if it may also have night vision devices, or only special units, or has been refitted with NV meanwhile, I do not not. But to 90% I think the answer is no.

Since the 2A5, there is a gunner's daylight sight (GPS), thermal sight (also GPS), and auxiliary sight (GAS, daylightl, for reserve), and a TC's daylight sight (periscipe), and TC's thermals. All of these allow gunner and TC to use systems indepedently from each other, and look into different directions at the same time. the TC looks into a scope for the peri, and onto a screen for thermal. The TC can override gunner from any of these to make the gun swing to where the TC is looking at (override mode), or make the TC's current sight move to where the gunner is looking at and where the gun is pointing at. Override mode is easier in the A5 than it was in the A4, and at leats in SBP' more intuitive, I always struggled with this switching between normal and KP mode. The positions of some of the hardware sights have been changed from A4 to A5 (the swedish 2A6/Strv 122 changed it slightly again, due to additional armour layers at the turret, and on the roof). SBP paints it in that way that if you switch between thermal and peri, both can remain very different viwing directions, which would make them two different devices on the turret roof, whereas the gunner's thermals and optics always will be synchronized, with the expection of vertical angle of the GAS.

In modern Leo-2s, there is also an equivalent to the american IVIS system, but I do not know if it was implemented with the A5 or A6. I posted a video on it some longer time ago, where it was to be seen in some short scenes, it were finnish Leo2A5, if I remember correctly. Very sophisticated. SBP-PE does not simulate either american or German IVIS currently. If it is planned for, I do not know.

Of no other type than the A4 more Leopard-2 were produced or had been upgraded to, as far as I know. That includes both the new produced A4s, and earlier versions that were upgraded to the A4.

Looks somewhat odd that bradley thermal imager. I am wondering whether they use the same for it like for the M1's

What, even more armour ? But maybe they would have more close engagements in their terrain.

That would be a game flaw then.

But the way the map is updated in realtime with contacts seen by any unit, kinda gives it IVIS capeability.

Ok, if you include the upgraded once then yers.

Here is some more thermal imager footage from an Apache in Iraq. Iraq is fairly hot Iguess, in several ways:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAkkC...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mThz_...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4u4Uvs5LKs

It appears it circles around from approx 900 meters. The view is pretty good imo, just the video quality sucks.

What, even more armour ? But maybe they would have more close engagements in their terrain.

No, it is about artillery delivered anti-tank ammunition (from above), and mine protection. Also, if they would send tanks into international missions, the Strv-122 would be the choice. And that influenced the threat estimation formign the basis for their additional protection suit.

Leo2A6 and Strv-122 are said to be the best protected tanks worlwide, currently.


That would be a game flaw then.

It has been asked in their fiorum a long time ago, and was denied to be a flaw (else it would have been corrected meanwhile, since it would be something very obvious). Matter of fact is that the TC looks through a monocular to use the peri, and has the thermal image on a monitor - another indication that noth systems work independant. The gunner has both the optics and the thermal in his one and only bicular sights, and only the reserve optics (GAS) in a separate monocular.


But the way the map is updated in realtime with contacts seen by any unit, kinda gives it IVIS capeability.

You mean SB? Yes, then.

[quote] Even better protected than the M1A2 and the challenger 2 ? :hmm:

Hmm, the 2A6 don't have an reenforced roof doesn't it ?

Every heared of the Leopard 2 PSO ?

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm (scroll way down)
http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_kp...rd_2_pso-b.htm

This thing has even more armour. Very sexy.

Yes, but isn't the thermal imager installed right besides the scope in the peri ?

How is it now in SBPE ?

Even better protected than the M1A2 and the challenger 2 ?

Think so, but that is just me.


Hmm, the 2A6 don't have an reenforced roof doesn't it ?

Think not, altough the turret has a redesign in armour.


Every heared of the Leopard 2 PSO ?

Yes. special design for action inside urban areas.


Yes, but isn't the thermal imager installed right besides the scope in the peri ?

Don't know.


How is it now in SBPE ?

Units appear with variable time dealys for updates, to simulate the time radio comms take. It is a map dpeending on radio comms. It is not really a digital IVIS-kind of device.


you have so many detailed and special questions, I think it really is the time for you to move and get the sim. ;) It's an investement for years to come.

That could be the case, judging by the weight but the M1A2 has depleted uranium protection, I am wondering whether the "green" tanks can match this somehow.

I can faintly remember one friendly fire incident in iraq where a Challenger 2 was mistaken by some M1's with an enemy and got saboted a couple of times from different sides from a farily close range, till they understood that it's an allie. Non of the penetrators had made it past the armour. At least that is what I remember.

And the DM53 ? What, it can penetrate through 1000mm RHA from 3000 meters away ??? :huh:

Oh really ? Is there a source somewhere. All sources that I have read so far mention that it got this extra armour plates on the front but nothing about a turrer armour redesign.

This secondary weapon station is sexy and what I always wanted to have!

It certainly is integrated into the peri. How else is it supposed to be able to cover 360° ?

Here we go:
http://www.kotsch88.de/f_leopard2.htm#PERI
http://www.zeiss.com/C1257088004A3F3C/EmbedTitelIntern/53_0110_e_PERI_R17A2/$File/53_0110_e_PERI_R17A2.pdf

So why doesn't it turn with the peri in SBPE ? What did the devs say about it ?

At least something. I remember now in that one video the enemy units being displayed as tactical symbols, instead of single units. How is it when an enemy platton gets destroyed. Does it appear immediately as destroyed on the map as well or dies this need confirmantion as well ?

What type of tanks are there now on the german side ?

So I see here a Leo2A4 an 2A5 and a Leo1A4, or what is it ?

Are there any other variants ?

Also do you know the armour values that are being used for this tanks in SBPE ?

Bah, don't tease me. I better watch it from the distance and keep working on my sim.

Demon, I am no expert on tanks, they even do not interest me so much as some people maybe think because of my love for SBP. I love SBP mostly for two reasons only: it is a great way to play hide and seek, which is my favourite of all games there are, and it is immersive. What I know about tanks comes from things that I have snapped up by reading here and there, SBP, the eSim forum, and some healthy reason. That'S why I cannot give you detailed spoecial information. You better ask these things over the the SBp forums - plenty of real world tankers there.

Even better protected than the M1A2 and the challenger 2 ?

That could be the case, judging by the weight but the M1A2 has depleted uranium protection, I am wondering whether the "green" tanks can match this somehow.

The German MEXAS armour is a multi-layer armour basing on the chobham armour design, that can be replaced in moduls. It is a special kind of steel that is only used by the Germans and is top secret. I read opinions that due to it's design and composition, it can rival American armour - it is said to be incredibly tough. The addition of Uran to the early M1 armour did not make the M1 something "über", but roughly brought it to the level of top armour in the world today. And the laminate armour the C2 and the Leo2A5/A6 use, also play in that league. Below a certain medium range, all these armours cannot stand the impact of a modern western SABOT, no matter what. In Iraq, Abrams got taken out with frontal shots by RPGs, not too mention the flank and rear...

Also, be careful with weight numbers when comparing - most often it is not mentioned if additional optional armour, skirts and such are being counted, and these skirts for example are not used in every tactical condition. the difference of "naked" and "armoured" Leos is in the range of several tons. The "fully" armoured Leo2A5 is around 70 tons, while usually it is listed with weights in the range of "only" 62-65 tons.


I can faintly remember one friendly fire incident in iraq where a Challenger 2 was mistaken by some M1's with an enemy and got saboted a couple of times from different sides from a farily close range, till they understood that it's an allie. Non of the penetrators had made it past the armour. At least that is what I remember.

Depends on ammo type and range. That a C2 survives several flank hits by an american SABOT of that time at "close range" I do not believe before I see it. Long range - possible. Medium range - problematic. Close range: no chance. there were some incidents in 91, though, were Abrams received Iraqi hits by T72s even at close range, and survived. however, since 2003 we have seen reports and pictures of not few M1A2s being taken out with frontal hits by RPG and the like.


Oh really ? Is there a source somewhere. All sources that I have read so far mention that it got this extra armour plates on the front but nothing about a turrer armour redesign.

If you mean that wedge-like frontal MEXAS armour, no, that did not come with the A6, but already with the A5. They changed some thing with the location of devices in the turret area for the A6, and new smoke launchers at least for the Swedish, I think, so they needed to redesign the turret flank as well. But I do not know the details.


It certainly is integrated into the peri. How else is it supposed to be able to cover 360° ?

Ask them, I do not know, and do not care. I am only interested in the features of SBP and in how far they represent reality, and if they say that the different viewing angles of TC's thermal poiting at 11 o'clock and the thermals of his at 3 o'clock, I am not in a position to question that. But the Leo2A5 is one of the main proects for their military customers. If they got it wrong, they would have been demanded from the first day on to correct that feature, since it is part of the primary training content.


At least something. I remember now in that one video the enemy units being displayed as tactical symbols, instead of single units. How is it when an enemy platton gets destroyed. Does it appear immediately as destroyed on the map as well or dies this need confirmantion as well ?

there are time delays. Individual vehicles, if i remember correctly, are sometimes displayed as well. Destroyed vehicles are always displayed as individuals, if a friendly has visual confirmation for the kill.


What type of tanks are there now on the german side ?

I listed the complete vehicle park in my review. Only the Swedish units must be added: Strv 122, CV9040 B and C. they came in form of the first addon.


So I see here a Leo2A4 an 2A5 and a Leo1A4, or what is it ?

Different variants of the Leo-1, yes: australian ones. difference for the main is in the sights equipment.


Also do you know the armour values that are being used for this tanks in SBPE ?

From the mission builder I can access tables for the ammuntion models, so I can see what values each weapkn system has, but the armour specifics are not listed. Which may be a secret even within their business anyway. Bt I can tell you that if you get hit in a Leo1, chances are you will not survive it. They are obsolete, i personally use them with as much tactical care as I operate an IFV. Or better, I play the sim almost exclusively from the seats of the 2A5, and only rarely the CV9040.

I'm not really in any need for new vehicles. :know: