Uh huh. That's been my point about wikipedia for years on this forum; a point that is about as profound noting that the sky apears blue on a clear day. They didn't have wikipedia when I was an undergrad or even in graduate school. It is certainly not allowed in any doctorinal program. Furthermore, I wouldn't even let my former high school students use it.

Regarding intent of use, I am very sure that the student in question was not planning on hunting squirrels with his new toys. Aside from this, I had an airgun when I was a child. My father taught me that is was a weapon, and, like all weapons, was to be treated with care and respect. I was supervised while using it. Perhaps your's taught differently.

You guys across the pond ought to be taking a leaf out of the British police 'tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime' hand-book:

http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/mos...ak_toy_gun.php

And whilst we're about it, lets not forget the danger of ball point pen tops to society:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/7042945.stm

I know the last link is a terrible tragedy but the way things seem to be going, coupled with the latest addition to the VCR bill over here it's a wonder that you can still buy spoons without a license.
:damn:

EDIT:
CNN labelling Airsoft BB guns as 'weapons' is exactly what our British media have done with airguns; constantly labelling them as 'lethal weapons' and miss-handling reports on their use by a few buttholes who have no respect for anyone or anything. Anything to sell a story at the expense of the truth. The worst thing is most of the populace are too stupid to tell the difference and suck all of the half truths up which in turn leads our government to believe they are acting in the best interests of 'the people' when they introduce new laws to 'combat the misuse' of airguns etc, when they know damn well that the existing laws controlling the use and sale of airguns (airsoft etc) are plenty rigorous enough if they were enforced properly. But like selling more newspapers, Nulab never let the truth get in the way of legislating to make themselves look good in public.

Surprised ya'll haven't seen the most obvious problem ...

Those airsoft guns (love airsoft guns, love their picnic's) were real weapons in the eye of the beholder. That 14 year old kid didn't just start collecting this huge array of airsoft guns. His mind was intent on killing someone. Fed by his own mother helping him to obtain that hidden desire with the purchase of a real gun.

He has been possed by the thrill and the power of just holding one in your hand. This can give a young person whose morales and personality have yet to complete the molding process gratification of the senses.

Whatever else was wrong with this unfinished person was started by the pride of ownership of so many look alike weapons.

Weapons he would probably have obtained if he legally and financially could have.

^^
You have a valid point there.
The problem as I see it (in the UK at any rate) is how high profile events like Michael Ryan going on a rampage have lasting repercussions for the rest of us far down the line.
There were plenty of laws already in place that ought to have caught out this man and his unsuitability to own firearms af any sort. A total failure to realise this man's danger is a failing of the people entrusted with the proper checks, not the laws requiring them.
Following the incident the government of the day banned all handguns** from licensed public ownership. Every year since then the numbers of people killed by handguns steadily has increased, proving beyond doubt that the ban did nothing to prevent people being killed with these weapons, because in the majority of cases the individuals who killed with them were criminals who couldn't have cared less about a ban.
All those people who held licensed firearms had their weapons confiscated without compensation (in many cases), were not likely to go and commit any sort of crime with them. All the ban served to do was treat a law abiding section of the population as criminals whilst ignoring the fact that real criminals would continue to do what they do with impunity. A classic example of knee-jerk law making; to be seen to be doing something, regardless of whether it actually works or not.

Instead of creating a smoke-screen, proper attention ought to have been paid to the real reasons why this happened: individuals failing to do their jobs correctly - negligence, in other words. Plain and simple. And for that sixteen people paid with their lives and a whole lot more had their law abiding freedoms curtailed.

**generalisation; see wikipedia link.

I honestly don't think everyone walking around with guns would lead to no crime, in fact i think it would result in far more shooting deaths. People have the tenancy of acting totally irrationally when they get angry, and give them ready access to a gun.. well you can imagine what will happen.

Police officers certainly do not want civilians walking around with guns, it would make their jobs far more dangerous then it already is, plus the obvious risk of civilians being stupid and trying to be "heroes", aside from all the scared civilians they would have to deal with with guns drawn. Also there is the problem of not knowing who the criminals are if everyone is brandishing a gun. Not to mention the risk of shootouts with civilians who decide they don't want a speeding ticket or other minor "crimes", or who just plain do the wrong thing at the wrong moment.

What about the people in bars who like to get drunk and are mean drunks that try to start fights. Imagine if they were all packing guns, bar shootouts would be a common event.

Also people with guns would not stop criminals from acting, I can point to the "wild west" as an example of that, where most people were armed, but few knew how to use the weapons. Bandits, Bank Robbers, and Gunslingers certainly had no fear of the civilians and acted with impunity.

Plus back in the 40's and 50's most civilians were not walking around with guns, and other then a couple of hunting rifles, did not posses any kind of arsenal at home. The 40's and 50's did have plenty of crime, though not so much in white suburbia (but they did have the Greaser kids and the like running around who certainly caused their share of trouble and fear.)


Most evidence shows that countries that have stronger gun control laws, have lower crime and murder rates, then those which have low or no gun control. Though it is impossible to remove all crime and murder given human nature (greed and envy), and mental defects, even if you removed all firearms from the entire planet. You can however lower the rate.

If you want to lower crime, you have to correct where society is going wrong. Crime is mostly caused by poverty, lack of employment, lack of education, lack of parental care. Our society is facing a major crisis, most parents now have to both work full time jobs just to make enough money to support their family, poverty is still a large problem, lack of proper paying jobs is also a major problem (where a lot of lower class families the parents are often working multiple jobs). The education system is in general continuing its slide downwards (both on the lower levels of grade and high school, and even the higher levels of college and university). With both parents working, no one is around to raise these kids properly, and give them the love and support they need. Parents try to put it onto the schools and daycares to do this, which is unrealistic, other people can not be expected to raise your own kids, and do it properly, especially given the pay size, and classroom size the average teacher faces.

These children and teenagers are not being raised properly, they have little self control, no self discipline, their emotional growth is often stunted or warped, many have moderate to severe mental/emotional problems due to lack of attention and love from their overworked parents. Teenage pregnancy rates are climbing, the age when children start having sex is continuing to drop. This is mostly due to lack of input from the parents, or the complete lack of sex education in schools, and particularly the lack of birth control education (if these kids are going to have sex regardless, then it is morally reprehensible not to teach them how to at least protect themselves from STDs and pregnancy.). Not teaching them about sex will not stop them from finding out what it is and doing it, infarct forbidding it and giving it mystery, increases the appeal to young people. All of this is only partly why our kids are going out of control.


Anyhow as to the topic. Airsoft should not be allowed to be sold to kids, since they look like weapons they should have real weapon restrictions. A police officer or anyone else having one of those pointed at them by a kid has no way of knowing its not real (Airsoft is made to look as real as possible). I also do not think kids should be allowed to own or carry any sort of firearm, though i don't have a problem with properly supervised training with firearms (i do think the minimum age should be 14 though). But they should neither own the firearm, nor have access to the keys to the firearm, nor have access to any ammunition (which should also be properly secured). Back to Airsoft, it isn't really a toy, and you can be injured by one (particularly the eyes). Airsoft guns are used like Paintball guns, by military enthusiasts who like to dress up, go into the woods and battle each other with them. They prefer Airsoft over Paintball, because you don't need the cleanup, or the full face mask, and the added bonus is that the Airsoft weapons, look and to a degree act like the real thing. They are not childrens' toys any more then a Paintball gun is (which can be even more dangerous).

Last i have to question what the parents were thinking with regard to their child or if they were at all, or if they were even really around to notice. I would guess the latter given the behavior of the child, though it is likely not entirely their fault (given what i mentioned above).

I can guarantee you that if he planned on shooting anyone, he wouldn't be taking these airsoft guns! He had .22 and a 9mm. The Airsoft is just toys to play shoot with his friends. i bet he used to get into playing with his friends in this way.

By the way, Airsoft is little plastic rubber pellets, designed so that they are harmless to other people. This is a toy. Matter of fact, I should post my human sensing version of it that is an automatic turret than can destinguish the difference between a dog and a human torso. Maybe someone younger here can build one to keep their little brother out of their room! I did post it in this forum a while back. It's pretty cool. They guy gets locked onto by the turret, and it sprays airsoft pellets at him! It's pretty funny! :D

By the way, please don't imply that I don't take real firearms seriously. I do. And a 'real' BB gun or pellet gun that fires real pellets or BB's, I would 'never' treat as anything less than a real gun. Those can actually cause some damage.

-S

Quite the contrary actually. Statistically it can be proved, and it is in place in most of the Nation of America right now. An example of even a non-Southern, democrat controlled state - 48% of the population of Washington state for example has what is known as a CCP, or Concealed Pistol Permit. That means almost 50% of the 21 and over population in this state may be armed at any one point in time walking around next to you. So if people are so irrational, and crazy, why is no one getting shot in anger over here by CCP holders? Only the non CCP holder criminals are the ones that are aggresive and doing the shooting. This act as inacted in the early 1990's (Operating for almost 20 years now) can be directly linked to a drop in crime rate by 50% and greater. Granted, it will never be 0, but being as small as possible is best in my book. Couple this to analyzing the cities and states that did not inact such laws (about 5 of them), and the numbers are staggering. Crime is off the books, up by 300% in many cases.

The same statistics can be found in the UK as well. A place where it is easier to buy a fully automatic AK-47 for only $800 lbs in downtown London than in the US, but where the crime has gone through the roof since the repeal of civilian weapons. Seems the criminals forgot that they aren't supposed to have this stuff and feel free to commit more crime because there is no consequence.

Crime statistics in Holland for example are the same story. 250 Euro's buys a criminal his hand gun. 1900 Euro's buys the AK-47, and hand grenades for a measly 7 Euro's. Murders and Property crime both fall at 24% higher than America, and that includes our extremely high criminal areas averaged in that don't allow CCP's!

Case and point is, Google will show you that living in Europe is a far more dangerous place to live than America. It can't be anymore black and white. Guns are a neccesary evil.

One more thought, every one of your forefathers had either gun or sword, and guess what? They handled them fine and showed restraint. And to top it off, they all lived a much more peaceful life than we do today. So why should you be any different?

-S

I stand corrected. My knowledge of firearms is limited in scope, at least relative to yours. I was simply thinking of the gun that I had. It was powerful, and very, very dangerous. This appears to be different.

Well, they are weapons. They're not very dangerous, but still weapons in a literal sense.

This thread looks like a bit of knee-jerk against CNN.

CNN weren't the first ones to say "weapons", it's in the second paragraph
That looks like the police used the word first. But if that gets in the way of "CNN propaganda scheme", fair enough.
Also, the next line mentions a hand grenade, that's most certainly a weapon. The use of the word "weapons" includes everything that the police found.
You can see it in the article, "weapons, including....etc". Damn lefty media.

What's better still is the FOX News clip [out there somewhere, google for it if you're interested] blasting airsoft guns for being so realistic and for being used in robberies. I like the female FOX anchor's expression when she points to an airsoft MP5N and says "who would ever want to buy these things?!"

Excuse my ignorance but aren't there airsoft pellets made from hard ceramic material?

And don't some of the more advanced high powered models offer a 600-800 FPS velocity?

Not being funny here but an airsoft BB gun is still a weapon same as a chair can be deemed a weapon or a kitchen knife or even a plank of wood.

Anything capible of killing can be used as a weapon, i shoot guns not just airsoft air rifle and live firing guns, some very powerful BB guns can cause serious injury and can be fatal, sounds silly doesnt it well no its not at the end of the day if you pulled that BB gun regardless if it fires 6mm plastic balls or 9mm live shells you will be killed here.

In london if some one draws a gun it is shoot first ask questions later, im lucky ive been detained twice by the police (both times released as i was not in the wrong) but all it would take is for me to point the gun at some one or the police officer or even just in the general direction and i would have been killed.

A weapon is an object that can be used as a tool that can cause injury or death, even stupid thinks like a pen can be used as a weapon.

So yes they should be called weapons and they are.

Put it to you this way if i picked up my steel toe cap boot and hit you over the head with it, the police define that as the "murder weapon" should i kill you or the weapon used to cause Actual bodily harm.

The sad thing is in alot of places in the western world a 14 year old can easily and legally buy an airsoft BB gun (i know i was one of them) and if a 14 year old can do that whats to stop them handing it to a 7 year old? its a bit like when we walk past shops and the school kids as me "can you get me some cigarettes" it is litterally that easy to obtain these weapons.

Ive been handling guns since i was 11, i have shot two people and caused injury to both, and yes both were accidents because they walked onto the range out of my vision i didnt even know they were on the range (shooting air rifles).

All of my guns are high powerd and are fully capible of killing you, i have an airsoft gun that can fire both plastic and metal BB's at over 900fps and it has a range of around 100 meters inside 35 meters i can probably say it will do serious damage if not kill.

I would like to say though i had no intention of shooting the two people i shot it was an accident i have no intentions to shoot anyone and nor do i want to.

Know why?

Cause i aint stupid!

Your quite right AVON i have a custom made CP-99 pistol it fires 6mm steel or plastic BB's (like pellets) it has a velocity of 900fps and is powerd by gas, with the steel rounds i can quite easily shoot through a car window screen (windshield) at 3 meters.

I also have a high powerd hunting rifle which has special type of rounds they are not flat nosed slugs but a very piont cone shaped like a real bullet but alot more of a point, they are fired from again a custom made Logun Dominator gun which has been heavily modified and will fire upto 1,700fps and that will kill you because i know full well it can kill cows.

Not being funny subman1 but i suggest you do take a long hard look at those instructions and the print on the box, because on 90% of boxes it states clearly in red writing "THIS IS NOT A TOY" and no they dont just fire rubber and plastic bullets airsoft also includes the use of steel rounds which can cause serious injury and if your gun is powerful enough death.

Ive been doing airsoft shooting and tournaments since i was around 11 / 12 im now not far from 20 i dont care if im firing plastic or steel rounds the same rules apply its still a weapon that can cause injury that is why we have face protection and padding.

Did you know that the higest powerd BB gun in the world firing a plastic pellet could easily penetrate your scrotem and cause your testicle to explode, you can thank the japanese for that one.

weap·onplay_w("W0069400") (whttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ebreve.gifphttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifn) n. 1. An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.
2. Zoology A part or organ, such as a claw or stinger, used by an animal in attack or defense.
3. A means used to defend against or defeat another: Logic was her weapon.

tr.v. weap·oned, weap·on·ing, weap·ons To supply with weapons or a weapon; arm.


From the oxford thesuarus the definition of a weapon.

Im sorry but that is one load of crap, a person who has a CCP licence has to be background checked, they wont just hand it out to you like a slice of bread, the people carrying these weapons know how and when to use them and would be trained to do so they dont let you loose with a gun unless you can use it properly. and i bet you most of them would carry them at night not during the mad rush of saturday shopping at the mall.

Whats more do you know how hard it is to buy an AK-47 in the UK? they are gold dust i have a de activated one it cost me £30 you could easily buy a truck load for £500 ($1000) but then you got to get them over the borders and how exactly? customs is incredibly tight here its hard enough to smuggle back a 8th of weed let alond a gun it will show up and you will spend a good 9 years inside for it.

Statistics in YOUR country show yes ok fine YOUR contry is it the same in somalia egypt UK germany russia? No its not, i can go to russia give a police man or customs £100 and guess what ive got myself a fully automatic AK74, just because in your country people can show restraint doesnt mean everyone can, i hold an unrestricted gun licence in the UK however the UK law does not allow you to hold a automatic weapon be it pistol rifle or machine gun in any capacity (live) you can have blank firing though.

In england it would be easier to get hold of an MP5 than an AK47 its just one gun that has never really made it in the UK, i have 1 of 3700 that are registerd in the UK and to prove it il post up pictures.

I can still use it as a weapon even if it doesnt fire.

Im guessing at this point that you're a Fire Arms Certificate holder then, Kapitan? At 1700fps I'd sure hope so, as that will be way over the 12ftlb limit imposed for airguns in the UK. Either that or you're using incerdibly lightweight pellets hehe, not prometheus piledrivers then? :hmm:

They are made in america funnily enough and yes im a fire arms licence holder, i have no restrictions on my licence, i normaly shoot 0.82g .22 magnum done rounds but hunting i use special rounds i dont have any at this second but i should get some by christmas but im in no hurry for them its winter.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...g/S8300091.jpg

This is my AK-47S made in china but used by the russians and later the checks i bought this in St petersburg and paid £30 for it (and thats expencive!) i had to pay a further £176 duty and special carrage, and a £200 assesment which the police had to check the weapon to make sure it was fully de activated before allowing it into england, i bought the weapon decalred it at customs and didnt see or hear about it for 11 weeks.

My brother signed for it and it was issued its full certificate, and is legal.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...g/S8300092.jpg

Even though its de activated this is still a real gun and can be re activated, its a show piece to me not anything more i have no intention of re activating it at all,but if i was to walk out of my house with this i can garentee i would not even get to the end of my road without getting shot!

When the police see or hear AK47 they wont even bother making you get down on your knees with hands on your heads they will just shoot.


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...g/S8300095.jpg

My leg how wonderful and hairy it is, see the black square well inside that is a scar you cant see it well due to the flash on the camera but that scar was from an airsoft gun firing steel rounds it was shot at my foot and re bounded up my leg and was imbedded in it, i spent 3 hours in hospital whilst the doctors had to numb the area to get it out, 3 hours 2 x rays and one painful and still bleeding leg later they got the round out it was only 5.5mm (.22) but it was a round ball that nearly caused alot of damage it it had gone much higher.

Deactivated guns have the firing pin removed and the barrel rendered incapable of holding or firing a projectile? I know the old bill are quite strict what qualifies as a deactivated weapon these days. It'll not be too long until all we can use if those round ended scissors you used to get a primary school :(

Is you ticket 'open' then or do you have specific land that is certified for centre or rimfire shooting?

Sorry to butt in, but we (they) are talking about airsoft guns, not air-pistols/rifles. Airsoft guns are powered by a mechanical spring that shoots plastic pellets at about 400 fps or less. The most they can give you is a nasty blood welt. They were built (although it does not say so directly) for fun use against properlly clothed (eye and ball-bag protection).

What you are describing, however, is an air-pistol. These shoot steel, copper, ceramic, or zinc-coated copper BBs at very high speeds. They are NOT intended to be shot at people for fun, but are rather used for a safer form of target practice and for small rodent removal. These ARE weapons (in the "killing people/gun-type" way).

Nice AK, too.