Originally Posted by tater

No, but the ROF issue has been entirely in RFB threads. Not to mention it's in the title post of this thread.

I agree that a dispassionate look at ROF is extremely useful. There are 2 things to look at.

One, what the actual ROF was like at sea in a submarine (not at a test range).

Two, for SH4, what should a ROF be to be realistic.

The two are not the same. If a 5"/25 could actually do 15 rpm on a sub's deck in combat, for example (our stock SH4 4 second reload), what should we set it to to be realistic in game, given the limitations of the engine to model gunnery?

It gets pretty complicated, really. If we are dealing with stock SH4 in everything but gunnery, I think you need to grossly lower the ROF. Why? Because:

1. guns are too lethal to ships
2. they are too easy to hit with
3. there are no material casualties (mechanical problems) modeled
4. sea state is only modeled as a can shoot/can't shoot, get below issue.
5. Stock SH4 crews become submarine supermen in no time (adding bonuses to reload, etc).

I think that the reload time can approach RL reload times (regardless of how short that number was in RL) with the following mods made to the stock game:

1. kv29's gun destabilization mod which requires that you fire the gun when the deck is level to hit the aimed range.

2. shell lethality is checked vs:

3. ship DMs (particularly DDs).

4. The shoot/no shoot stuff regarding awash decks is looked at to eliminate gamey shooting from decks mostly under water.

5. the ROF for guns on enemy combatants and armed merchants are checked (they don't shoot enough, IMO)

6. The DM of the submarine vs enemy shells is checked (getting hit by a deck gun such that damage is done should be BAD).

7. AI sensro values need tweaking such that the ships will spot and return fire sooner.

There might be a few more, but those 7 all interact to make surface actions more effective than they were in RL. 1 through 4 will reduce effective ROF, and reduce hits and damage to realistic levels. 5 through 7 make getting into gunfights more dangerous than stock SH4 (which is a joke in that respect).

IMO, if a gun actually reloaded in 4 seconds in combat, I'd likely be happy with it set to 5-6 seconds as long as the other changes were made. The additional couple seconds would be a way to take into account all the factors we can't mess with.

tater

Originally Posted by tater

Stock SH4 has the reload time set to 4 seconds.

Note that the navweaps site lists the ROF for that weapon as 15-20 rpm. Poor Bowfin didn't read the manual, or they would have fired faster I guess ;)

So 66-100% lower ROF than spec, probably due to the poor platform a submarine is for a gun, ammo issues, and everythign being soaking wet all the time.

I'm actually perfectly happy with ROFs being in the ballpark of what that Bowfin site claims as long as the guns aren't gyro-stabilized death rays. Firing for effect, lying to in a calm sea, that would be fine as long as a boat making flank into a stiff sea can't do the same. Kv29's mod looks like it will absolutely mitigate this problem and allow a more accurate ROF to be in game while preserving historical outcomes.

That said, if the real ROF was 10 (assuming plenty of ready ammo), I'd tend to drop it by some small % to cover problems still not able to be modded in. So maybe 8-9 rpm for a 10rpm gun (jams/misfire clearing, etc).

Not that in my testing of kv29's mod, I was lucky to shoot at ~8 rpm at close range with the reload time set to 4 seconds just because of the roll and pitch of the boat.

Originally Posted by tater

No, but the ROF issue has been entirely in RFB threads. Not to mention it's in the title post of this thread.

I agree that a dispassionate look at ROF is extremely useful. There are 2 things to look at.

One, what the actual ROF was like at sea in a submarine (not at a test range).

Two, for SH4, what should a ROF be to be realistic.

The two are not the same. If a 5"/25 could actually do 15 rpm on a sub's deck in combat, for example (our stock SH4 4 second reload), what should we set it to to be realistic in game, given the limitations of the engine to model gunnery?

It gets pretty complicated, really. If we are dealing with stock SH4 in everything but gunnery, I think you need to grossly lower the ROF. Why? Because:

1. guns are too lethal to ships
2. they are too easy to hit with
3. there are no material casualties (mechanical problems) modeled
4. sea state is only modeled as a can shoot/can't shoot, get below issue.
5. Stock SH4 crews become submarine supermen in no time (adding bonuses to reload, etc).

I think that the reload time can approach RL reload times (regardless of how short that number was in RL) with the following mods made to the stock game:

1. kv29's gun destabilization mod which requires that you fire the gun when the deck is level to hit the aimed range.

2. shell lethality is checked vs:

3. ship DMs (particularly DDs).

4. The shoot/no shoot stuff regarding awash decks is looked at to eliminate gamey shooting from decks mostly under water.

5. the ROF for guns on enemy combatants and armed merchants are checked (they don't shoot enough, IMO)

6. The DM of the submarine vs enemy shells is checked (getting hit by a deck gun such that damage is done should be BAD).

7. AI sensro values need tweaking such that the ships will spot and return fire sooner.

There might be a few more, but those 7 all interact to make surface actions more effective than they were in RL. 1 through 4 will reduce effective ROF, and reduce hits and damage to realistic levels. 5 through 7 make getting into gunfights more dangerous than stock SH4 (which is a joke in that respect).

IMO, if a gun actually reloaded in 4 seconds in combat, I'd likely be happy with it set to 5-6 seconds as long as the other changes were made. The additional couple seconds would be a way to take into account all the factors we can't mess with.

tater

Originally Posted by Palidian

So instead of fixing what is *actually* wrong, put an annoying artificial limit on the ROF, how is this a simulation?

I however do not feel the shell dammage is too powerful in the stock game. To easy to hit? Yes.

Originally Posted by tater

No, but the ROF issue has been entirely in RFB threads. Not to mention it's in the title post of this thread.

I agree that a dispassionate look at ROF is extremely useful. There are 2 things to look at.

One, what the actual ROF was like at sea in a submarine (not at a test range).

Two, for SH4, what should a ROF be to be realistic.

The two are not the same. If a 5"/25 could actually do 15 rpm on a sub's deck in combat, for example (our stock SH4 4 second reload), what should we set it to to be realistic in game, given the limitations of the engine to model gunnery?

It gets pretty complicated, really. If we are dealing with stock SH4 in everything but gunnery, I think you need to grossly lower the ROF. Why? Because:

1. guns are too lethal to ships
2. they are too easy to hit with
3. there are no material casualties (mechanical problems) modeled
4. sea state is only modeled as a can shoot/can't shoot, get below issue.
5. Stock SH4 crews become submarine supermen in no time (adding bonuses to reload, etc).

I think that the reload time can approach RL reload times (regardless of how short that number was in RL) with the following mods made to the stock game:

1. kv29's gun destabilization mod which requires that you fire the gun when the deck is level to hit the aimed range.

2. shell lethality is checked vs:

3. ship DMs (particularly DDs).

4. The shoot/no shoot stuff regarding awash decks is looked at to eliminate gamey shooting from decks mostly under water.

5. the ROF for guns on enemy combatants and armed merchants are checked (they don't shoot enough, IMO)

6. The DM of the submarine vs enemy shells is checked (getting hit by a deck gun such that damage is done should be BAD).

7. AI sensro values need tweaking such that the ships will spot and return fire sooner.

There might be a few more, but those 7 all interact to make surface actions more effective than they were in RL. 1 through 4 will reduce effective ROF, and reduce hits and damage to realistic levels. 5 through 7 make getting into gunfights more dangerous than stock SH4 (which is a joke in that respect).

IMO, if a gun actually reloaded in 4 seconds in combat, I'd likely be happy with it set to 5-6 seconds as long as the other changes were made. The additional couple seconds would be a way to take into account all the factors we can't mess with.

tater

Originally Posted by tater

Steeltrap, that 7 seconds number is a great find!

What gun did Wahoo carry at the time?

It's interesting, because I changed the kv29 mod to have a reload time of 8 seconds. Not sure what crew quality does to the reload time, that would be useful to know.

tater

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

Von Tonner,

You posted a quote earlier in this thread.

Here is part of the quote:

"Lay alternate fire with the U-boat’s other weapons in order suppress return fire. There is a four second interval between rounds, and while the deck gun is reloaded, open fire with a short burst of anti-aircraft rounds. If within range, small arms fire from the MG34 is very effective at suppressing return fire. Suppressive fire from the 20mm and even the 37mm anti-aircraft cannon will not sink the ship, but is used only to prevent the crews from firing back."

It is about U Boats.


What was your source for the quote.

Originally Posted by Uber Gruber

Personally, i think the deck gun RoF is far to high. Why even in RFB its far too high, i'm hoping that someone will soon correct this and bring us a realistic 1 round every 10 mins....c'mon modders, what are ye waiting for?!!!!

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

Oh heavens, here we go again, no one has mentioned RFB until HE shows up. For heavens sake THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR MOD. Chill out man!!!

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Now, if we could just make it so receiveing any sort of shell hit of 4" or greater size would have a great chance of rendering it impossible to dive, we'd be on to something.

Cheers!

Originally Posted by Horst Mikaelis

My way of dealing with the issue is as follows:

1. Use the higher rate-of-fire of the Trigger Maru Mod
2. Never control the gun yourself; rely on crew-directed fire

Horst

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

You know, you are probably right. 249 U.S. submarines operated in the Pacific Theater. To take a handful of war patrols which are presently available from only 3 or 4 of these boats and then come up with a ROF and claim this as the average for ALL remaining 245 is tenuous at best. Until more evidence comes to light either in supporting or negating, the jury will remain out on this question.

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

"With the slow rate of fire, about seven seconds per round (my italics), it was impossible to stay on the yacht for more than one or two hits.....and only 8 sure hits were observed. After 88 rounds.....the enemy still seemed under control...."

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

Von Tonner,

You posted a quote earlier in this thread.

Here is part of the quote:

"Lay alternate fire with the U-boat’s other weapons in order suppress return fire. There is a four second interval between rounds, and while the deck gun is reloaded, open fire with a short burst of anti-aircraft rounds. If within range, small arms fire from the MG34 is very effective at suppressing return fire. Suppressive fire from the 20mm and even the 37mm anti-aircraft cannon will not sink the ship, but is used only to prevent the crews from firing back."

It is about U Boats.

What was your source for the quote.