2 questions but alas - no answers, dont know them...sorry

1. Can i detect hovering hilos with the sonar?
(i know it was asked,but i couldnt find the answers by SEARCH)

2. How do i know if i'm in a CONVERGENCE ZONE, and can this knowledge help me in the TMA process.

OK, those aren't frequent questions, but I'll bite. Check the wiki a few minutes from now.

OK, I answered 2 in the Wiki. I won't answer 1 there, because all my testimony would be hearsay and I can't think of an exception to the hearsay rule that would make it admissible. :know:

But I've heard from reliable sources that the helos can be heard in BB sonar when they're very low and very close. I've never seen it myself.

I just did a quick test with the mission editor, and a MH-60 hovering at 60 ft shows up on a 688i's sphere broadband within 500 yards. It's very faint, but you can see it on the long-time display before you can on the short-time display. I wasn't able to get a narrowband contact, but I didn't try too hard or get within a hundred yards or so.

Basically, if you pick it up and it's hostile... ulp!

Yeah, detection with Stock DW has worked, the Helo for starters even has a SL entry. Tho it was always rather faint and it only works below 100ft of altitude (or even less).

However I think Lw mentioned something way back when he introduced the TIW for missiles that helos and aircraft can't be detected by sonar anymore. So the answer probably is two fold ... in Stock DW it works, while in LwAmi it doesn't.

Can anyone confirm?

Cheers
OS

P.S. : I've added some questions to the FAQ, maybe someone could look into them.

Or, some nutjob from the CIA needs to get aboard really, really badly. Or perhaps an exercise umpire.

Good reading Molon, thanks. :up:
I would think about changing the headline because you expand your explanation to the affect of a CZ on TMA done in that condition.

Eh, I don't want the question itself to be more than one question. That would make it hard to browse. If there is a separate TMA Q/A, then that part of the CZ answer would be worth repeating.

Heh, the people who really know can't going to tell you, leaving you with the people who are making guesses themselves. Some are good, some are not so good.

Have you tried the RIMPAC-CSG, NATO EXWAR Exercise, or Kara Sea Strategic ASW missions? I try to include with each of my missions a set of slides that explain something about the tactical problem posed by the scenario. It won't necessarily tell you how to solve the problem (there's usually not really any single answer), but it should give you an idea of the variables involved so that you can come up with your own answer. Just as a fair warning, Kara Sea Strategic ASW takes a long time to play, typically, because it's a search problem so if you don't see anything right away it doesn't mean it's not there. Don't try to play that one in a single sitting.

Here's the the question that has always bothered me... I have a 40x40 nm area to patrol in my SSN (lets say a 688) and I'm task with intercepting a hostil SSN that I KNOW is transiting the area. Assuming that I has the acoustic advantage in terms of sonar and quieting and assuming that the enemy sub is going slow and quiet through the area (lets say an Akula II transiting at 5knots) what is the optimal search pattern?

Whenever I face this scenario I always end up assuming a back and forth pacing, sprint and drift. I setup at on edge of the patrol zone and listen a bit. Then I sprint to the middle and listen a bit. Then I sprint to the other end and listen a bit. I know that my sprints will loose my acoustic advantage, but I'm paranoid that if I don't cover ground the target will float by while I'm at the other end of the patrol zone.

Is there a better way to do it?

hm... that's pretty cool, I never actually knew that the helo's would show up at all. Time to start paying attention to those BB contacts without NB signals. Looking at the db, it looks like the NB frequencies of the helos was set higher than the sub sonar range so that the sub will never actually get a NB signal (someone correct me if I'm wrong)... seems logical because helo rpms are actually pretty low that they never really even get past a few Hz.

Kara Sea Strat ASW only takes 4-6 hours or so of game time, most of which can be played at max time compression. The red subs are so noisy they can be heard very, very far away, so the mission goes quickly even considering the size of the AO.

Fair enough, the thing is a lot of people fail to make the most use of the time compression feature, so they get panicky when they don't see something in the first few minutes. I noticed that in early versions the subs tended to cavitate a lot. I tried to fix that in subsequent versions. I've also added some randomization of their depths, that seems to have a big effect on their detection range, which is interesting.

The best approach would probably be to guestimate (or test and actually find out) the maximum speed you can run at and still be able to detect the target first. That speed is going to dictate the pattern you patrol.

If you can't cover enough area while remaining undetected, then sprint and drift may become necessary. It isn't necessarily a 'good' option though, because you enemy will probably be able to avoid you if he can hear your first (well, a human opponent, anyways).

What you're doing is probably as good as anything. There exist mathematically optimal search patterns but often the difference between them and just going back and forth is small. You'd be surprised, though, how important the ratio between the target's speed and the searcher's speed are. I suspect that if I worked it out, you probably derive a pretty significant benefit from the sprint-and-drift tactic you described because it has the effect of upping your search rate. It's interesting though, because it's also a two sided game when you throw in counter detection.

Something I've noticed that I think is interesting, though, is that scenario designers tend to make barrier searches like you described too short, with insufficient randomization of the target's initial location to allow for the possibility of failure. That bothers me, because when I examine the mission I realize that the outcome is essentially canned.

Lack of randomization bothers me as well. The best barrier patrol mission that I've come across is BobbyZero's WithX3tremePredjucide Mission, but modified with randomized SSBN and SSN starting points. Trying to find a Ohio with an Akula and dodging the SSN/SAG screen is tricky.

Yes, for this reason the noise of the helicopter is cancelled [Altitude Sonars Detection - Removed]. Differently you will have on Sonars of the signature ASW of Missiles...

Well, that's a bit of a leap. Detection might be preordained, but that alone does not necessarily determine the outcome. It's a big step though.

I have to wrestle with this every time I design, because the speeds that these vessels travel at relative to the detection ranges are very small. To make detection or non-detection solely a function of the players and not the design, you have to make the "attacker" transit substantial distances. It's very difficult to get those into the "standard" 2-hour timelength for a DW match... which is why several of my later missions are not designed with the 2-hour standard in mind!

Detection might not determine the outcome, but it usually dictates who shoots first, all things being equal. Usually the person who shoots first win. It's not a done deal, but in my experience they have a substantial advantage. Unless they're doing something dumb and just shooting down a line of bearing. Even then, though, the way some of these scenarios are designed, they'll almost always hit because everyone starts off too close together to begin with.

I don't even pretend to design for 2 hours or any particular time in general. In 2 hours, at 5 kts, you travel less than a third of a CZ range. That makes no sense. If there's no CZ and figure maybe a ~10Nmi direct path range, it makes even less sense. Sometimes it's fun to just throw some subs down and shoot some torpedoes, but in the end, you miss out on what makes submarine warfare challenging; finding the submarines. That's the hunt.

Da Bump ...

Btw. the Wiki is slowly growing and it would be great if people take a look and maybe correct or add stuff where needed. For those who have already contributed things to the community like guides and manuals, it would help if you copy&paste them in the wiki as well. For starters we have one single resource for all players and (if you are interested in it) that would be the opportunity for others to expand and where necessary correct your work.

Cheers
OS