And how was that?

I appreciate all the cool things mods have done but I have to speak up and say I disagree that unmodded SH3 was mediocre. That's just not the case.

Perhaps at the time of initial release it was not considered "mediocre", because there was no frame of reference other than SH2, or AOD. But go back to playing the released SH3 now (I mean v1.0) and I'm sure it would be considered that way.

Otherwise, then, if SH3 was "great" on release, what is it now with GWX, or WAC, on top? What's beyond "brilliant"? "Dazzling" according to my thesaurus. But I think SH3 has grown beyond merely "great" to "dazzling". "Mediocre" to "great" - I can live with that comparison. ;)

All frames of reference and all relative. :p

Good thread, needless to say I am 100% on the side of the Kpt. and his feloow modders in seeking some guidelines on this issue. Courtesy ... is that too much to ask? :hmm:

So if I understood Kpt. Lehmann right it is ok to break the copyright of artists (sound, vision, etc) and the software developers (those poor souls that write the original code) because their ware is passed on as freeeware and no profits are sought, but once it has become the work of modders written permission has to be given, even though another modder takes the exact same approach as the original. Yes, in a hypocritical way that makes sense now... :)

Just because Ubisoft have not taken legal actions and Petersen and Bavaria Studio's don't do that either doesn't make it right - the developers of the program have spend much more than two years on writing the code that you so carelessly claim as your own now (even in a heavily modified way) and I doubt that anyone here (me included) wrote off asking permission for it (since it is a big no-no in the ToS and User Agreement right from the start)...

talk about ethics and morals - those programmers do this for a living... :hmm:

That's the thing about the Internet - you make it accessible to the world you loose control over it unless you place a copyright on it (which would be tricky considering the legality of things)...


flame me, burn me down, accuse me of sniping and snide remarks - won't change a thing about the legal stand of it all...


You what? No mate - it stems from the view that if somebody does something to somebody else they can't later complain if the exact same thing happens to them... :)

No one is talking about the legal stand bar you
Ethics
Courtesy

Read the thread properly

Respect keeps the modding communities alive. Too bad there's so many people in the world that are striving only for the personal glory. :nope:

I have - have you?

Ethics - what is so ethical about taking a piece of code that is clearly labelled not to be taken and modified (read the end-user agreement you have with Ubi soft)?
Courtesy - are you talking about the courtesy that is shown to all that have a different view-point here, or the one applied when talking face-to-face?

And if I hear somebody be labelled an thief that automatically makes it a legal question since you are talking about property theft - wouldn't you agree? So I wasn't the only one talking about it - but the first to maybe name it for what it was!

don't give me ethical and courteous if you don't lead with example
this whole thing is clearly blown out of all propotions and I can see that anybody taking a different view to the one of the 'Modders team' is just getting a bruising at best - and as such I withdraw... :nope:

Alas it is an objective reality while there are those who considers that should ask the sanction to free fashions them in which is directly told what not for commercial use and can freely extend. Also speaks also that is wishing to specify to everyone its place, and it can not coincide with desires of the one to whom specify. It also does not cause desire to distribute the operating time. And opportunities at all different, and situations vital too. And simply threat of financial sanctions from those who has for this purpose opportunities also many forces to do for itself only.
(machine translate)

I am mostly in sync with most of Lehmann`s standards - and I personally follow my own rules. I always go forward to get permission (and not just a lukewarm one) even before I include something made by someone else.

But those are just that, the personal standards of Kpt. Lehmann and many others, including myself, but not everyones. And in some way they are double standards, because the distinction between legal (as in Peter Gabriel) and moral claims (us) is problematic, though not completely illogical.

What I think is that it is ok to ask and encourage these rules to be followed by everyone, but I am against trying to enforce them onto any newb and lamer that might come to these forums - I mean I think it is great to try and be a gentleman, a man of honor, but it`s a decision you have to take yourself. There should be no moral police telling you what to do, especially if there is no legal ground you can stand upon.

So: if some loser slaps his name onto some mod that I made - and it can`t be called intellectual theft because neither has the stuff ever belonged to me, nor does he earn a penny with it .. Then I am not giving them applause for that - but what the heck.

I would say thats what tolerance demands.

Don't forget that sometimes people just make honest mistakes. Nobody's perfect. A lot of modders are newbs too, ya know. :) I would think that usually if you can just a provide said author with a little friendly advice and helpful info, then it will go a long ways towards helping rather than hurting.

To all SubSim modders:

I hope you guys know you have our full support and thanks. I understand where you are coming from on this matter completely.

While I don't think we need to be throwing words like "theif" around lightly, I do want to know if someone here is unhappy with what has been done to their mod.
With the understanding that that's all you can do. Let people know and then that's it. Move on.

Personally I doubt I'd use a mod if it the original modder was unhappy about it. But some people will and there's nothing you can do except to stop making your mods public.

I pray that doesn't happen.

You know, anyone bringing up the issue of modding ethics is doomed to get mud on their face. So be it.

@Spytrx and other non-modders who may have just arrived here. You have no vested interest in the last two years of creation that have gone on here... apart from cherry picking whatever you like that suits your gameplay style... even if it includes gratuitous explosions or whatever. Ergo calling me a hypocrit is shooting from the hip... because you don't like what I/we have to say.

Yes, we didn't change something you didn't like and held our ground... so you now have a problem with us or me or whatever. Your posting history is easy to review by anyone here.

You haven't had to suffer individuals who have developed a parasitic relationship with your work as Carotio has done with GWX and has announced plans for concerning WAC.

The story might have had a different outcome had Carotio decided to make some sort of overlay mod package for GWX and present it independantly... but that is not what he did. He re-destributed the entirety of GW and GWX without seeking any permission.

Carotio's actions are taken and chosen with total disregard for any sort of process that goes against his wishes. We've taken a direct stance against his cavalier attitude (and others) who have total disrespect for the origination of original created material. He has made it clear that he has no intention to change how he goes about doing things regardless of the outcome... and we intend to oppose such behavior.

What Carotio is doing, is little different from what donots76 did... (former "GWX Dev" who slapped his name on some pre-release files created from thin air by Boris, and released them as his own... later playing the "poor me" note when we decided to bare our fangs and excise the cancer.)

You may view me as egotistical or the front man for the "big oppressive GWX organization." I no longer care. I view it as my duty to protect the effort that our guys make to improve the submarine simulation... and the work created by the artists who have contributed directly to it. I'm sure this feeling is mutual when you view HanSolo78's righteous anger when confronted with the same set of adverse conditions.

Carotio has had the same opportunities that the rest of the modding community has had... to build something from the ground up... Instead, he chose the easy road... and a personal mission in life to view all others as "suppressing poor old Carotio." Very well. He can also accept the natural resistance that people will give when someone takes without permission.

I'll address the "copyright infringement" issues separately in a few moments... and at some point soon I will propose some ground rules to clear the way for future modders with honorable intentions.

And in teme ethics:
That I should think when have seen it:
Add Dornier Do.24 searchplanes/bombers (thanks JScones)
Link: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=111353
As I remember - it's my plane, and I saw that it plane JScones!!!!!
What do I deal with it fact? It is not so simple inclusion of my unit in mod, it already its giving to itself.
May be any talk me - that I should think when have seen it?

Hi mate.

Much is lost in translation.

The Dornier Do.24 is not included in GWX to be clear.

It's read in link teme, and place or not plane in you mod - it's you deal, but giving to itself - it's other.

Hi Denis

That thread refers to a Dutch mod in SH4
I think Jaesen was just pointing out there was a DO24 aircraft around

It isnt in GWX and would have been up to the mods creators to ask for inclusion

GWX team always ask permission! Check!
GWX team gets no answer? -> use anyway with credits! Check!
That's what I read!
Well, who says that the creators of all the small mods used in GWX play the game the same way as you GWX guys?
It would be very strange, if all played this game the same way. And just because GWX is one package, it doesn't mean that all parts are accepted by everyone!
What a piece of b*llsh*t! Again Kpt Lehmann fills you all with lies! GWX-TA is not GWX in its entirety! It is "a tweak package to go on top of GWX using JGSME..." So again Kpt Lehmann shows his ignorance!
One word: relax!
You'll only become older much faster, when spending your time being angry all the time!
Above you admitted to have done just that yourself!
That's really a cheap remark! Easy to say: ask for permission, when the standpoint is allready taken to deny the request!

Yes, you do! And some other guys too! You don't want a "GWX for casual players"!

Break those yourself, and expect others to do the same!
No-one cares except some modders! Sorry to tell you the truth!
Nor I or anyone else supporting me seek profit!
Again you admit to have included mods without obtaining the permission first, but with proper credit!
I know this was not adressed to be, but it's just so funny that you accuse others to use previous differences in the new approach, when you do exactly the same yourself always!
Interesting, when comparing to a quote from another GWX team member, made in ubi forum ->
It just shows how selfish this GWX team is!
This team would like to use other people's mods, but refuse the use of their mods inside other mod packs! So JScones, does this apply to me only or everyone in general?
So if someone else does a mod, which is similar to yours or anybody elses work, it's okay, given that it's based on historical facts!?
Interesting!
So you admit also that if you would get no answer, you would use it anyway also! Hmmm.... interesting!
Point taken, we discuss the way how to act! Okay: asking + crediting vs. no asking + crediting vs. no asking + no crediting
You want: asking + crediting, period! Right?
Then you have to accept an incoming request for the use of your mods in other mods as well, if you use other modders mods in your mods! Anything else would be ridiculous! Especially, when you have allready admitted to intend using mods yourself with credits only if no answer given!
Glass houses... that's a good one! LOL!
Honestly, I think this is well spoken! But selfproclaimed internet-forum policemen will get no respect! Courtesy will come out of itself, not when ordered!
At least, I do not call you a parasite just because you ripped of material from Bavaria Studios and put it in your mod!
What a piece of b*llsh*t! Again Kpt Lehmann fills you all with lies! GWX-TA is not GWX in its entirety! It is "a tweak package to go on top of GWX using JGSME..." So again Kpt Lehmann shows his ignorance! For the second time in this thread! He hasn't even bothered to try out GWX-TA to see the difference for himself. So much for his argumentation! Which is inferior!
Yada, yada, yada... I haven't even published this so-called join-mod of WAC and GWX! And not even here at subsim! But false rumours spread in the water, when the talking maschine of Kpt. Lehmann and his lieutenants spread their accusations. Just visit ubi forum, look for my GWX-TA thread and look at page 5, where I proclaim the join-mod. Which sentence did I finish the announcement with? = "Mostly thought as a joke!" I guess some people just don't have sence of humour! In the first place, I didn't even know, whether it was possible to do or would demand too much work. Maybe, I would need help from others to do it! I had not even started the discussion, before this future mod AND GWX-TA was attacked! And I must say, GWX-TA has been falsely attacked! Kpt. Lehmann (and others) continue to claim GWX-TA to be GWX in disguise, when it's NOT! Continously, it's suggested to make it a tweak mod for GWX, only problem for the accusers is that it allready is, and as such hasn't been investigated properly! And this is WHY, I honestly NOW consider to try do this join-mod! So thank yourself for your continous false attacks!!
Since donots76 isn't around anymore, at least not with his past alias name!, to defend himself, I think it's a cheap attack!
Well, you are an egoist!
Let me quote you now:

And Carotio is still thinking why everyone is so mad at him... sorry little sod he is. :shifty:

LOL, the way Carotio bends words to suit himself is laughable and obvious.

Tis a shame... it looks like he's taken days to build that post.

Plain and simple, Carotio has leeched on, and intends to depend on, the success of others for whatever he throws out there and hopes will "stick."

Regarding GWX TA not including the entirety of the GW or GWX mod... well its about time.