Actually, I was referring to your stating that it might make someone think for a second.

Nope. :nope:

[quote=Enigma]A little off topic, but I recall seeing a woman overcome by emotion at a hearing about the Kursk, and she stood up and was yelling at the military and goverment officials on the panel, and a lady walks up and injects her with something to knock her out and shut her up. :o I couldnt believe my eyes![quote]

That woman you saw was nadezhda tylik her son sergey was onboard in the 4th compartment, and its new russia so thats what happens now.

The kursk had been round for about 6 years and her construction was not rushed like the early boats, it was carefuly laid out and planned and built.

Like all other people i believe a torpedo exploded inside causing a chain reaction.

as for a collision i highly doubt it would be like riding a bike into a bus down hill at full speed the NATO sub would have either beed sunk or damaged so badly that it would have to surface, people forget a western sub averages just 7,000 tonnes the kursk is more than 3 times that at 24,000 tonnes and she was traveling at speed when she sank, so anything that hit her would have been barged clear out of the way easily.



the toledo brought about heavy speculation because it was seen by a russian satalite in a norwiegen harbour, i would have thought there were norwiegen analysts onboard (which happens often) monitering the exercise, what people are forgetting is this was the ASW part of the exercise and submarines can be seen from the air so if its not a big fat blob like kursk under that wave then i wonder who it could be?

It is open to public scrutiny, but that only works if there is public INTEREST - ratings for the TV stations. The media can be rabid when worked up but their attention also gets diverted just as easily and fast onto another focal point. The Memphis inspection was a good move (If I assume a collision) by the US Navy. Let them see the undamaged sub to cool down the media attention. While they are staring at Memphis, do a sleight of hand with Toledo.

Even if someone notices a few months later, if things get tight they can always claim it bumped the sea bottom or something.

If they did collide? Well then there's an obvious act of dishonesty by the US Navy to say the least. And if they collide and covered it up with a torpedo like the conspiracy says, that's an act of war.

In any case, I don't think a collision alone sank Kursk. As Kapitan and many others say, that would spell the death of Toledo or Memphis or whoever bumped - mass and steel strengths will see to that. As I've said previously, if there was a collision, it would be a grazing collision - one light enough in terms of relative velocities to pit only the Kursk's light hull against the LA's main hull, so the strength difference becomes important and saves the American from heavy damage. The Russians were just unlucky that a torpedo got knocked about and caused the explosion. Either that or the Americans fired...

You missed the point - A collision would 'never' go un-noticed by anyone in any US port. And who is going to sink the Kursk if you simply colide anyway? That was the point. You make it out like this - Oh no! We collided! Sink the Kursk so no one knows! That is a smart thing to do since the entire Russian Navy already knew the British and Americans were there watching - its a given! Thats the dumbest conspiracy theory I think I have ever heard - says something about people's intelligence when they create this stuff.

Oh I know - the Americans parked their sub right next to the Kursk so they could watch the firing through a periscope, but actually bumbped them instead! That must be it! They can do this because the Kursk has crappy sonar and can't hear them that close anyway! (Now Watch Kapitan come on this thread! :D I'm just kidding Kapitan! I know they can hear a US sub miles away).

And if you ask Kapitan, he would even tell you it was an internal torpedo since he even beleives a Mk48 couldn't sink the Kursk!

I just love conspiracy theories and when people actually believe them it is even better!

-S

But everyone likes a good conspiracy theory. Who has seen that French documentary that laid out the case for a collision with Toledo and Memphis firing the torp. Personally it seemed like a French director with an axe to grind or a sure fire ratings winner. Let's blame the Americans again.

I was living in Russia at the time and the amount of crap I heard was amazing. Saying that I heard even more people angry with the govt. and not belieing the early line that someone else sunk the Kursk.

I remember someone saying it was a suicide bomber when it first happened?

The Russians are very secretive when it comes to these things, but im sure it wasnt anything thats too surprising. I'd back the faulty torpedo theory.

Me too - in a good movie or something! In real life, I like to analyze, and only if a plausable explanation fails to exist do I start to actually pay any attention to the conspriacy theorists, but I always take that with a grain of salt too.

-S

Are you postulating that the US would have NO way of quietly dealing with such an incident?

If they did it, they clearly made it off well, right?

As far as I'm concerned, there is insufficient hard evidence to say the Americans did it (at least not as commonly published). That's why I try to be consistent to include some hint like "If they collided" in every post. However, in my opinion, many of the excuses people make to handily discount the conspiracy theories are flawed and place too much faith in the US Navy. You may say so far I'm going for Not Proven (an option available in some legal jurisdictions) instead of Not Guilty. And I'd admit it - the alternate theories sound so much more interesting than the main one, and I'd prefer to consider how they might be valid rather than just sticking to the nice government version.

If they sank it with torps, it was probably a mistake. For all the high training standards purported for the US Navy, Vincennes shows that American personnel can see an ascending plane as descending, a commercial airliner as a F-14 (even a transponder won't save them), and a F-14 becomes a antiship attack aircraft with precision munitions and we all know what happened that day. Considering that the assessing the underwater picture is a much more manual (manual=human error) process than the neat little radar picture assembled by Aegis, I'd hardly be shocked if after a collision, the covering sub's nervousness caused a mistake in judgment.

The oscar II was designed around the MK48 ADCAPS they were designed to take one hit and be able to surface the maximum damage one MK48ADCAP could do is realy flood two compartments well thats still not enough to send her down to the bottom, whats more if you look at the angle of the sub as she lays there, note her arse end is a fair bit boyant even with 7 forward compartments completely flooded.

What if it hit the torpedo room and blew up what the Kursk was carrying?

Sounds not too far from another vessel that was supposedly unsinkable ;)

Oscar II has two major week points that could split it in half easily if hit but the chance of a torpedo hitting those two spots is slim as they are both on the belly of the submarine (one near the reactor one between compartments 2 and 3), if a torpedo hit head on or even impacted the compartments 1 and 2 its still not enough to sink her.

the bow and sail of all Oscar II are re inforced theres two main beams that run along the submarine end to end, unless you get one right up the tube again its going to do little damage dont forget there wont be time for a fire the compartment will flood not long after impact.

Indeed. Can't realy comprehend wich idiot that authorized the use of it. Been working with Hydrogen Peroxide for several years in a lab, it's a VERY unstable explosive! Confined, everything over 5 grams will selfdetonate over it's own weight if the substance has suffered polution. ( Polution as in fine grains of dust or moister from the air )

I saw a program on one of the documentary channels on sky a while ago which went into great detail about what happened onboard the Kursk. A flaw in the torpedos they were carrying caused an explosion which caused the disaster.

Got no idea if all that's true of course, could all be a cover up but I certainly remember alot of detail was shown in the program. They talked about how the inital explosion and fireball didn't just kill the men in the torpedo room but even crew members as far back as the control room were either rendered unconcious or killed. If I remember correctly the reason they explained as to why the fireball from the explosion so easily traveled back through the compartments was down to something like how the air conditioning system worked on the sub, or something like that.

One thing I remember being talked about was evidence that the inner torpedo hatch wasn't properly closed and secured when the torpedo explosion occured, if it was, the initial explosion and it's effects `might` (that's my words, I can't remember exactly what was said as I watched this program a while ago!) not of been so dramatic further away from the torpedo room & if the crew in the con hadn't been either knocked out or killed outright then who knows if they could of managed to get the sub to the surface.

It was a very interesting documentary, keep an eye out for it on national geographic channel, it's bound to be repeated.

Whatever the problem was that sunk her ... it had to happen fast.
Most US submarines run around with all compartment hatches open. I suspect the Russians are the same ...
only in an emergency or a drill or for battle stations would the hatches be dogged watertight.

The topedo's were suspected in the Scorpion sinking too,
but I think not. Not in that case, but aren't these Russian torpedo's
the super fast 60 to 70 kts and only go in a straight line?

Perhaps their own fish did it, but not Uncle Sam's ... that's for sure.

But don't ya'll remember some of the crew made it to the aft escape trunk and died in the trunk from lack of air?

I thought they left a note, a clue perhaps.

They did leave a note, but they were far from the forward compartments when it all happened, and I'm sure their clue would be no more accurate than those that we have ourselves. I'm certain that whatever happened, happend fast and unexpectedly. As you yourself suggest about the compartment hatches - I would guess whatever happened to the sub, it was not rigged for any sort of emergency circumstances. If it were, as Kapitan suggests in terms of the torpedo survivability, it's unlikely that would have sunk the sub.

As far as I understand, were this not a completely unexpected event (and if it weren't an accident, I would think it would be expected), the damage would not have been so catastrophical and there would be survivors, the sub could maybe even surface. When the thing blew up, and everything seems to suggest that the 'thing' was inside of it, it was already too late to start doing anything. Water went from compartment to compartment and the sub just sank.

Subman is right. There is absolutely no way the US Navy could keep such a secret. There would be far too many people involved, from the crew to shipwrights and dock workers, to the various politicos and their staffers, you're talking thousands of people. Somebody would talk for any number of reasons and while the US media may be easily diverted it would not be long before they returned to it.

Even today, years later, revelations that the US Navy was involved in the Kursk disaster would be front page news in every city in the US. If not for the action then the coverup.

Even if I were not right, you could consider it payback for the USS Scorpion.

-S

so.....Scorpian was sunk by the Russians?