let me guess
 

This is all just a drop in the bucket.

Meaning we are only scratching the surface on which?

war crimes or battle credits and marine law.

MM:hmm:

As they say, "but for the grace of g-d, there go I". Yes, I agree, MM. Good post. I'm disappointed that, Gizzmoe, misunderstood my intent ... and apoligize for any offense in that regard, but believe that all history is prolog.

all the best,

Let's not trot out some moral equivelency argument here as it just does not hold water. LeMay and Harris didn't develop their operational goals and habits overnight or in a vacuum. Before there was a Tokyo or a Dresden there was a Nanking, a Pearl Harbor, a Rotterdam and a London. Germany and Japan pointed the way toward total war and the rest of the world followed. What was unthinkable in 1940 was a matter of course by 1945. And, both Tokyo and Dresden were legitimate military targets; the former was the home to thousands of workers who assembled weapons in small dispersed workshops and the latter was a major transportation and communications hub that had not been heavily damaged up to that point.

As for OBL , he is a true terrorist who targets symbols of the "Great Satan" and other Western states; embassies, warships, financial centers, military quarters and HQs, transportation centers, etc. In choosing these targets he attempts to maximize the death toll as this underlines the message of vulnerability.

Barkhorn.

With all due respect, nor does yours.

The fact remains that atrocities were committed by both Axis and the Allies, and no amount of desperate justification will obsolve either from their war crimes, period.

No sorry, I disagree as context is important - and sometimes vital - as it is in these cases.

Barkhorn.

Well thats part of the point the machine held up that Rotterdam was on purpose and it was held up that acts like that made the germans monstorous I agree morality shouldnt be wishy washy but hypocrisy is the worst of it. (not you)
they held up that Rotterdam was monstrous and that Gernika was too
why is it monstorous when the other side does it and a "necessary job of work" when we do it. Should not we hold ourselves to the same standards under which we convict them.

( please lets not use this to open the debate on whether american troops should be held accountable for war crimes if you need to address that start a thread.)

We live in an imperfect world and we are but men also imperfect.
but does that mean we shouldnt work to improve our world or
ourselves. if old moralities from a middle eastern village of a few thousand
years ago cant describe an appropriate morality for genetics.
and that morality would say no genetics is the work of the devil or
unnatural. but in an ever evolving universe morality should be morality
for all the reasons it is needed among societies but morality should never be static in the presence of evolution.

OBL just wants to create conditions that will unite the arab superstate.
thats what the "Foundation" is for I think. and to fuse yourselves into a single economic and political union of states isnt a new idea.
the world didnt change on 911 its always been that way.
I certainly do not endorse his tactics or his self justified morality
however I feel that all of what OBL does has been done before,
in other places and times.

Begin and Arafat come to mind.

enuough back to subs.

MM

I did not misunderstand your intent.

When this thread started it was clear that someone would think "Graaaah, Mush Morton!!!!! :damn:" and would bring up the war crimes again. But like I said, that is off-topic and had been discussed several time already. Now this thread turns away from the original topic and we´ll soon have yet another thread about war crimes, something the original thread was not about.

No Gizz your right
 

Much as I love make an occasional outlandish statement to spark debate
and boil down an issue.
your right the issue of war crimes isnt where we started out.

Dudley W Mush Morton was a man for "His" times.
a lot of what Mush did has influenced how we play
sh3 today. its a shame that he attached a blemish.
its a shame that the context in which mush lived
is largely lost on us in the liberal passive world.

Hmmmmmmmmmm
 

Ooops Maybe I should just call you by your full forum name from now on.:rotfl:

The art of debate.
 

The art of debate is to get both sides arguing the facts down to the lowest common denominator.

Good debators dont have their minds made up before hand they just take
a side and argue like its there own.

what they make their own is the result.

the boiled down chewed over and torture tested bottom line.

and an adaptive evolving mind takes that up.

I want to thank all who have or do participate I have
enjoyed it a lot.

(no that doesnt mean wishy washy it means adapt and overcome)
Semper fi.
MM

What i meant was, that this topic (or arguably any topic), about Dudley Morton - a center point of contraversy, is going to create waves, or ripples in the pond.

If all those soldiers Mush killed in the water came back from the dead as zombies, would he still be credited with killing them?

(Worst attempt at saving a thread ever!)

LMAOOOOOO....:rotfl:

War crimes aside, you have to have some basis to rate accomplishments.

If you want to throw out a qualification then it should be SUNK.

It does not present to be finite yet gives the perception that it is. Sunk should be changed to damaged status. :huh:

Just replace permanently sunk vessels with destroyed. Then we can argue about how much damage, how long did the damage take to fix, if the boat was damaged just before a big operation how much significane did its loss hold, and yada yada yada.:D

So Mush,

Make your own criteria and send it to the Navy.

Who knows. Maybe they will scrap theirs in favor of yours.:D

Well
 

somehow as I said earlier I find it doubtful that the issue will ever
be revisited. as I said I just wanted to voice my own dissatisfaction
at the call.

as for the war crimes ..................

Gentlemen of all the people in all the world who have ever passed
ponder or comment on this issue. I have this to say. Somehow of
all the people who were ever aware of this issue, I believe that
the Japanese soldiers in the water themselves understood what
mush was doing. moreso than anybody since id bet and further
I believe that they wouldnt themselves have percieved it as a crime
but as a way of bringing them honour.

Just my opinion.

Im done now.
MM:|\\

That's not OT Subnuts ... that's OF (Off Forum) ...

You know good and well that killing zombies is an entirely different game ... :lol:

I answer that with a question:

Can you hear a Midshipman sh*t on the poop deck?

Edit: I just got a new sig, thanks Subnuts you friggin comedian.

Shouldn't they be called sailors? If they are soldiers then they are just smelly cargo.:rotfl: I spent 4 years in the amphib navy.

I have to say sunk is complety taken out of action for good. You can't change the meaning after the fact. If you do you are doing these men a great disservice and padding the books for them.

It's odd that the one gentleman used the numbers from german pilots. I think it would have been better to use the numbers from the japanese destroyer captains on sub sinkings. According to them we must have had as many subs in PTO as the germans did in the atlantic.:lol: