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-   -   Bush claims authority to open Americans' mail (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103159)

geetrue 01-04-07 05:22 PM
Why should an honest American citzen be concerned about
his or her mail being opened ...

The US government is not going to prosecute an honest person ...

This is aimed at terroist ... I can't get upset with a country
trying to protect itself ...


Same with cash deals over ten thousand dollars ...
They get reported.

This is no big deal for people like me with junk mail and a
monthly disability check.

Those of you in other countries (you know who) don't
even know if your government is wire taping you or
checking your mail anyway, right?

TteFAboB 01-04-07 05:23 PM
Good job waste gate. :up:

The government grows bigger by the minute. These are hopeless measures of an entity that knows no way of solving any problem other than by hoping that its natural unlimited self expansion will bring the solution in the end: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa584.pdf

Quote:

This paper is not intended to attack the
hard-working and well-intentioned members
of our law enforcement and intelligence communities.
Rather, it seeks to illustrate that
predictive data mining, while well suited to
certain endeavors, is problematic and generally
counterproductive in national security
settings where its use is intended to ferret out
the next terrorist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish
To fly to the US is almost as hard as going to Moskow during the cold war.
I find that statement to be quite cynical. If you intend to compare the USSR and the USA it can only be done through intellectual dishonesty: it is more difficult to travel to the USA today than in the past because of Al-Qaeda's attacks, not because Americans are building paradise on Earth. Ignoring this would only minimize the Soviet Union's Iron Curtain favouring the worse, as always happens when the unequals are equalized by force.

When Europe and the USA are the only points of reference, the "police state" expression can only be used rhetorically, without any regard to reality and in relative form.

Sailor Steve 01-04-07 05:23 PM
"They who are willing to give up a little freedom for a little security deserve neither"

Author unknown, but commonly attributed to Benjamin Franklin (and less commonly to Thomas Jefferson).

Some polls indicate that a lot of people are willing to do just that, whether it's gun control or reading our mail. I say no.

01-04-07 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by geetrue
Why should an honest American citzen be concerned about
his or her mail being opened ...

The US government is not going to prosecute an honest person ...

This is aimed at terroist ... I can't get upset with a country
trying to protect itself ...


Same with cash deals over ten thousand dollars ...
They get reported.

This is no big deal for people like me with junk mail and a
monthly disability check.

Those of you in other countries (you know who) don't
even know if your government is wire taping you or
checking your mail anyway, right?

This is why!!!!!!!!!
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

U-533 01-04-07 05:30 PM
Honestly people...:roll:

If you have nothing to hide then why let it bother you?

My wife and I receive mostly junk mail...if they wanna open that "Hey more power to them"
As for the rest of my mail its bills and an occasional letter from some relative, most times wanting something...:roll:

If they want to listen in on my stupid phone calls thats ok to...

But umm I do draw the line at invading my home... so far ... when the police show up they ask nice real like if they may look around...as long as they ask first I dont mind.

I have nothing to hide.

What I do have hidden they wont find no way sooooo....Im cool:|\\ :|\\

You see this is where the right to bear arms thing comes in... you want to keep your secret stash of WHATEVER secret... when the law comes to your door shoot'em.
This should buy you enough time to find a new place to hide your s#*t...
Just remember one thing when they come back they will shoot you first then ask you questions....:roll:

Holy cow people we are at WAR... The enemy will do what it can to win... I mean come on they got 72 ETERNAL virgins thier after...EACH!!
:hmm: I just cant figure out why they stay ETERNALLY virginized?????:hmm: :hmm:

Seems like a useless cause in paradise to me.:huh: :o

01-04-07 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U-533
Honestly people...:roll:

If you have nothing to hide then why let it bother you?

My wife and I receive mostly junk mail...if they wanna open that "Hey more power to them"
As for the rest of my mail its bills and an occasional letter from some relative, most times wanting something...:roll:

If they want to listen in on my stupid phone calls thats ok to...

But umm I do draw the line at invading my home... so far ... when the police show up they ask nice real like if they may look around...as long as they ask first I dont mind.

I have nothing to hide.

What I do have hidden they wont find no way sooooo....Im cool:|\\ :|\\

You see this is where the right to bear arms thing comes in... you want to keep your secret stash of WHATEVER secret... when the law comes to your door shoot'em.
This should buy you enough time to find a new place to hide your s#*t...
Just remember one thing when they come back they will shoot you first then ask you questions....:roll:

Holy cow people we are at WAR... The enemy will do what it can to win... I mean come on they got 72 ETERNAL virgins thier after...EACH!!
:hmm: I just cant figure out why they stay ETERNALLY virginized?????:hmm: :hmm:

Seems like a useless cause in paradise to me.:huh: :o

I do not hide my firearms and I don't think based on this:

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

That the government can open my mail. The same slippery slope applies.

PeriscopeDepth 01-04-07 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U-533
Honestly people...:roll:

If you have nothing to hide then why let it bother you?
Because if people keep on saying that, we won't have many freedoms left 20 years from now. I have no problem with the government keeping watch over terror suspects, but perhaps there should be some probable cause to do so?

PD

Camaero 01-04-07 05:47 PM
Seeing as how only those who are guilty will only be the ones in trouble here, it doesn't bother me too much.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I do think it violates that however. We certainly must be careful. A police state does not happen all at once you know. Freedoms are slowly chipped away until one day you wake up and say "Holy shxt!?" Keeping our firearms IS A MUST.

I sort of have mixed emotions on this. On one hand, they are using it to stop people we are at war with. On the other, it does seem to be a violation of an amendment.:-?

U-533 01-04-07 05:47 PM
"UNREASONABLE SEARCH" will not be tolerated.

Ducimus 01-04-07 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U-533
Honestly people...:roll:

If you have nothing to hide then why let it bother you?
Complacency like this, is how Dictator's come to power.

01-04-07 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camaero
Seeing as how only those who are guilty will only be the ones in trouble here, it doesn't bother me too much.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I do think it violates that however. We certainly must be careful. A police state does not happen all at once you know. Freedoms are slowly chipped away until one day you wake up and say "Holy shxt!?" Keeping our firearms IS A MUST.

I sort of have mixed emotions on this. On one hand, they are using it to stop people we are at war with. On the other, it does seem to be a violation of an amendment.:-?

Once you allow the power to exist nothing stops the government (police, social services, your neighbor if he/she works for the gov'mnt) from comming into your house whenever they wish without the check (constitutional seperation of powers)which is provided by another branch of government.


This is a very bad precident being set and all US citizens should make their displeasure known by calling their senators and congreessman.

01-04-07 06:05 PM
[quote=Camaero]Seeing as how only those who are guilty will only be the ones in trouble here, it doesn't bother me too much.[quote]

So much for innocent before proven guilty.

Perhaps you should take another look at your principles and see if they align with what made this a great country.

nightdagger 01-04-07 06:06 PM
What I think is messed up is that it takes so long to get a warrant. In any case, this (probably) won't lead to mass-scale censorship and letter-reading. If someone who is an expert on the subject thinks that by looking through a terrorist's mail he can prevent attacks and save lives, then I'd love for him to be able to do that without waiting for a warrant.

In any case, as stated by the White House, there is no change in policy that would make it widespread.

You forget, too, that if they want to read your letters, you probably won't find out and couldn't do anything about it even if you did.

01-04-07 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightdagger
What I think is messed up is that it takes so long to get a warrant. In any case, this (probably) won't lead to mass-scale censorship and letter-reading. If someone who is an expert on the subject thinks that by looking through a terrorist's mail he can prevent attacks and save lives, then I'd love for him to be able to do that without waiting for a warrant.

In any case, as stated by the White House, there is no change in policy that would make it widespread.

You forget, too, that if they want to read your letters, you probably won't find out and couldn't do anything about it even if you did.
So you easily accept the government taking your rights away?

PeriscopeDepth 01-04-07 06:12 PM
Did everybody suddenly forget why we have Constitution?

PD

01-04-07 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth
Did everybody suddenly forget why we have Constitution?

PD
No. Its to protect the people (citizens) from the government.

PeriscopeDepth 01-04-07 06:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by waste gate
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth
Did everybody suddenly forget why we have Constitution?

PD
No. Its to protect the people (citizens) from the government.
Well, not everybody. :)

PD

TteFAboB 01-04-07 06:19 PM
What about the cost of this?

It's not just the 4th Amendment, it's the tax and public deficit. Who'll open the letters? Who'll transport them? Will delays occur?

This "tension" has no solution. If we forget about our rights and what they have costed our ancestors then when the war is over we may not get them back. We need to crack down on terror cells at the same time that we need to uphold our tradition of freedom.

We need people defending the 4th Amendment. And we need people keeping terrorists at bay.

Here's a good quote about attempting to collect information to profile terrorists:

Quote:

Suppose, for example, that a
test for a particular disease accurately detects
the disease (reports a true positive) 99 percent
of the time and inaccurately reports the presence
of the disease (false positive) 1 percent of
the time. Suppose also that only one in a thousand,
or 0.1 percent of the population, has
that disease. Finally, suppose that if the test
indicates the presence of disease the way to
confirm it is with a biopsy, or the taking of a
tissue sample from the potential victim’s body.
It would seem that a test this good should
be used on everyone. After all, in a population
of 300 million people, 300,000 people
have the disease, and running the test on the
entire population would reveal the disease in
297,000 of the victims. But it would cause 10
times that number—nearly three million people—
to undergo an unnecessary biopsy. If the
test were run annually, every 5 years, or every
10 years, the number of people unnecessarily
affected would rise accordingly.
In his book The Naked Crowd, George
Washington University law professor Jeffrey
Rosen discusses false positive rates in a system
that might have been designed to identify the
19 hijackers involved in the 9/11 attacks.
Assuming a 99 percent accuracy rate, searching
our population of nearly 300,000,000,
some 3,000,000 people would be identified as
potential terrorists.


01-04-07 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TteFAboB
What about the cost of this?

It's not just the 4th Amendment, it's the tax and public deficit. Who'll open the letters? Who'll transport them? Will delays occur?

This "tension" has no solution. If we forget about our rights and what they have costed our ancestors then when the war is over we may not get them back. We need to crack down on terror cells at the same time that we need to uphold our tradition of freedom.

We need people defending the 4th Amendment. And we need people keeping terrorists at bay.

Here's a good quote about attempting to collect information to profile terrorists:

Quote:

Suppose, for example, that a
test for a particular disease accurately detects
the disease (reports a true positive) 99 percent
of the time and inaccurately reports the presence
of the disease (false positive) 1 percent of
the time. Suppose also that only one in a thousand,
or 0.1 percent of the population, has
that disease. Finally, suppose that if the test
indicates the presence of disease the way to
confirm it is with a biopsy, or the taking of a
tissue sample from the potential victim’s body.
It would seem that a test this good should
be used on everyone. After all, in a population
of 300 million people, 300,000 people
have the disease, and running the test on the
entire population would reveal the disease in
297,000 of the victims. But it would cause 10
times that number—nearly three million people—
to undergo an unnecessary biopsy. If the
test were run annually, every 5 years, or every
10 years, the number of people unnecessarily
affected would rise accordingly.
In his book The Naked Crowd, George
Washington University law professor Jeffrey
Rosen discusses false positive rates in a system
that might have been designed to identify the
19 hijackers involved in the 9/11 attacks.
Assuming a 99 percent accuracy rate, searching
our population of nearly 300,000,000,
some 3,000,000 people would be identified as
potential terrorists.

OK, but are you willing to let your children live under the yoke of a government that tells you its for your own good while taking away the rights clearly expressed in the Constitution? Please, for all of us and your future progeny look at the big picture.

geetrue 01-04-07 06:43 PM
Didn't the U.S. State Depatment or wait a minute I think it was the FBI fire a lady for reading the stuff they found in Iraq too fast.

She was a muslim lady (not bad looking either). She was reading and translating the files they found over there, but she was right here in Wahington, D.C.

Then she complained that her supervisor's had told her to slow down, because of job protection. ABC got hold of it and reported it on the air, but she got fired anyway for telling the truth.

They don't have the manpower to read 1/10 of the suspcious mail ...

Plus one last note:
You know those little post offices that aren't really post offices? They're just middle men post offices that charge you a few cents extra to keep you from going to the regular post office.

Well they have the right to check anything you send through them. I know a lady just got busted here recently for mailing marijuana and a large amount of ecstasy to a friend in Florida. They simply said, she acted quility and they opened her parcel as soon as she left. That's when they found the illegal drugs. No search warrant there.


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