[quote=scandium]I assume you mean the Arch Bishop, and he isn't saying this, you are. What he is saying is the if you treat Muslims as second class citizens, segregate them into ghettos, and interact and regard the lot of them as though they were part of a terrorist sleeper cell, would you expect them to then adopt Western culture and values anyway when they've already been rejected by this culture? I wouldn't, and the Arch Bishop doesn't either.

From that he then asserts that, having been denied the reason and opportunity to internalize the values of the host country - the very values that would prevent them from ever strapping on a suicide belt - they become prey for the ideologues.

However you read that and conclude that the Arch Bishop is saying that the Muslims shouldn't take any responsibility for their actions. I read the same article and didn't see him state that anywhere. What I did read, though, was that Europeans should take responsibility for their own actions rather than believing as some of them do that you can treat people like **** because of their religion or ethnicity, consign them to squalor, deny them the opportunities you allow everyone else, and then expect them to treat you with love when you've only shown them contempt.

Edit: This is what I will call the white man's fallacy: having a history of exterminating other races and cultures as inferiors, brutally subjugating and enslaving the survivors, acting with impunity in foreign lands to transfer the wealth from foreign lands to our own without regard to the locals, and indeed importing a few to our own countries for the purpose of using them as an underclass to pick our tomatoes and clean our toilets, it is now shocking and apalling to us if one of the dogs we kick suddenly bites back.

As long as this pattern of behaviour continues they will continue to bite back. And if you don't like it, well tough. The cycle will never change until the dynamic itself changes and all the lofty talk about the inferiority of Islam is only another symptom of this very problem: ignorance and a misplaced sentiment toward entitlement and superiority. You may as well go cry under your bed for all the good your hysteria will accomplish.

You haven't read "Quelle éducation face au radicalisme religieux".

The Muslims who fall for radicalism are immune to cultural values, they know all the values of the host country, even better than some natives, and despise them all, values, culture, natives, host country, instead considering themselves to be superior to them.

These Muslims weren't rejected by anybody, they chose to reject the culture and the values of the host country, sorry scandium there are no victims here for you to pat on the head.

The only Europeans who treat Muslims like feces are the ones planning and executing government policies, if Europeans took responsability and removed these politicians from power, it would indeed solve alot of the problems.

EDIT: Nice self-loathing by the way, I respect anyone capable of doing a mea-culpa.

But you still don't get it. Those who believe Islam to be inferior are the ones in power who believed Muslims would absorb the superior European culture. Muslim fanatics are not ignorant of European culture and values, they despise them more than you do.

You may as well go cry under your bed for all the white man's crimes and fallacy while you the Arch Bishop of love gets stabbed in the back by a dagger full of hate.

Scandium,

More bollocks from someone who gives then impression of understanding Islam, but knows nothing about it's theology and motivational drives as a matter of fact.

First he distortes the sayings of this archbishops and tries to wrap them into a different context. BTW, people must not actively arrange themselves in circles of love around Islamic suicide bombers. Or has anyone ever seen a deer in the forest, showing hunters a sign "Me first, please"? Suicide bombers tend to head for such flocks of people all by themselves. -
Next he reduces the confrontation between Isalm and West onto the terrorist level, ignoring the cultural confrontation that it is in the main. -
Next comes the linking of bomb-slinger's motivation to bad living conditions in the West, and by that disconnecting bomber's motivation from the demands and orders of their religious faith that tells them to subjugate all of Allah'S world (that includes us infidels) by fighting and killing, if no voluntary submission takes place. I assume it is our own guilt that Islam demands global ruling and penalizing us for not obeying - since we resist to that demand. - After that he starts debating public health and diets. - And then he wonders why no one takes him serious and is laughing about him. :dead:

London attackers are said to be coming from fully integrated, matrial well-serviced muslims houselfolds and families.

Recent arrests in the US caught terror suspects of Muslim origin, who were fully integrated citizens of the US.

Terror supsects arrested in Germany over the years lived without raising suspicion in our middle, had their jobs or studies, were friendly, considered to be integrated and in cungruence with the values of our constitutional order. we were wrong in these assumptions.

It is by far not the poor and socially non-integrated fellow Muslims that had bad luckm in life and were treated mean that fall for the ideas of true Islam. Over the last five years we had to learn that they were quite educated, came from good families, and often had a well-integrated background. that kind of background that you demand, Scandium. But it did not prevent them to be breeded out. just close your eyes again if that is too uncomfortable for your view of the world. You are excused - you do not know Islam the the self-dynamic of it'S inne rteaching and ideology. You simply do not know it.

You can't profile them without understanding the drives of Islam.

It's not only about terror, btw. In a war you do not declare war on submarines, tanks and interceptors. You declare war against a country, and by that, often against an ideology, WWII being the prime example. In chess you do not fight against the king, the queen or the bishops and pawns. You fight against your opponent. Figures are only the tools of fighting. We do not wage war against terrorists. We need to wage war against a violent, all-demanding, greedy ideology of totalitarian control and primitive leader-cult.

It is not only about terror threats. Terror strikes we can survice, they cannot really threaten our community'S structures, or the survival of our civilization. We will get used to them, like traffic accidents. The confrontation on ideological and demographical level is what poses the threat to us.

You simplify too much, for the sake of your far too much outhought theories, and at the price of seeing realities. You stumble over your own cleverness that way. What you claim to be alternatives, we have tried in europe and Germany and other countries since long, since decades. In these times, we suffer from the bad and rough awakening. So does the vatican as well. You think your suggestions are so new, and so clever. But they are old. and we see the ruins of their failur in ourm local communities. But like radiatation after a nuclear explosion, the contamination still is there and is destructive.

YOU SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE A CLUE ABOUT THE MOTIVATION AND IDEOLOGY OF ISLAM. YOU SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

That'S why we do not take you serious anymore. Do not wonder, and do not complain about it. It's a logical consequence.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/s...e-6073a8e6ea19
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0606/p01s02-woam.html
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...604?hub=Canada
http://www.humanist.toronto.on.ca/islam.html
http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/islam.htm

quoting from the last link, Serge Trifkovic:
Do not believe Islam's self-description, and what their Imam's are telling you. Islam is not really famous for it's ability of critical self-reflecting - that is considered to be a sin. It has prevented that since centuries, and you will not be the blessed one who makes them aware of that, you better believe that. It will tell you anything you want to hear if that helps it to push it's agenda, at the cost of you. It is allowed to do so in it's understanding. It all comes down to simply this: it wants for itself, what is ours. And not enough, additionally it want's us to join it's false beliefs, or wants to see us in the dust. If we reject , it reserves the right to kill us. It preaches freedom - within the borders of Sharia. It preaches tolerances - within the borders of Sharia. It preaches justice - on the ground of Sharia. It preaches peace - in the definition of Sharia. Period.

Welcome to the jungle. Adopt, or loose.

"Adapt."

it's ironic that this Archbishop knows exactly why the Islamic terrorists are doing what they do--it's because they believe from a religious stand point that they should do this---(wether or not any one else within or out side their group believes they have interpreted the teachings correctly or not)

walk into any "born again" Christian church on the planet and they'll tell you the same thing- every one else is the enemy--they only exist to be "converted"

the issue is really just how long are we going to allow Religious organisations of any sort to make up their own rules--and then try to impose them on the rest of worlds population-

the Archbishop knows exactly why what he has said is merely him claiming he has the power to convert the terrorists to his religion--

it's the spiritual equivilent of a d*ck measuring contest--and helps no-one..
he only needs to look at his own doctrine to see the answer--every-ones a sinner ..every-one no matter what their cirumstances has to be "converted"

the terrorists are on the same trip

he's not naive he's just lying--

It's funny that I, of all people, should have to pipe up here and ask what you are referring to?

It's been a long time since I can recall forced conversions to Christianity ("kiss the cross or kiss the sword"). Where is this happening today? On what original Christian doctrines was it base upon in yesteryears when this was widespread?

Are you sure such born again Christians view everyone else as enemies, and not as sinners or lost souls or on the wrong path? These do not have the same connotation as the word "enemy."

I stopped reading the rest when I realized that, rather than debating the merits of the Arch Bishop's suggestions, or offering your own as an alternative and when I realized this was only another rant aimed at my "ignorance" of Islam from Subsim's resident armchair Quarterback (only this Quarterback prefers to complain about the tactics of the other team, that before the game the other team prays to the wrong God, and that the leftist referees are biased) rather than what strategies and tactics are necessary to defeat the other team.

Skybird, you keep saying I'm the enemy yet you never elaborate on what exactly I'm getting in the way of. This makes it hard to take you seriously (and I'm finding this harder and harder every day as you simply put up today's hate piece but without ever adding anything constructive to it).

Adapt or lose.

absolutely sure..sad to say--and getting gradually more extreme every day..i've had some experience with these groups--it's hard to find a church these days (even traditional low key churchs) that haven't fallen victim to the drive for hard core right wing religion--we don't need to look at the more extreme groups in America for example--they are only limited by what they feel they can get away with--most local born again churches here in england seriuosly believe that they are the only people who have the doctrine right--even to the extent that they preach that to attend a church of a similar doctrine just yards down the road would be to "go to hell"..i'm not kidding it really is that surreal--given time it will even become dangerous--as this mentality once properly unleashed is completely with-out rational boundaries---they are extremely right wing and know no law other than that is preached from the pulpit on sunday services--sounds silly doesn't it--but it's not

the terrorist follow exactly the same thinking...convert or destroy --nothing else matters

I once had a prof for social psychology. One day I met him in the university restaurant, and we talked and he learned that I have done 17 years of Wing Tsun and Japanese swordfighting, with real swords, I mean. Being a sports pistol shooter himself he was so fascinated that immediately his academical theory-generator, his brain, went into active mode, and the next half of an hour he explained me the differences between Wing Tsun und Karate. It was ridiculous nonsens what he said, total crap, but it became more and more complex a theory - his theory on what he imagines WT and Karate would be. In the end I learned from his mouth, what I knew all the time: he never had practiced neither WT nor Karate nor any other Martial Arts himself.

He looked a bit irritated when at the end I asked him if he ever has seen the movie "Karate Kid" :lol:

No wonder that I smiled all the time but did not take him serious. As long as he wouldn'T have started training himself, all attempts by me to explain him what it is, and what nonsens it is that he is talking would have been in vain, and would only offended him. He nevertheless would have lacked the basis to understand what I was about.

It's exactly the same with you. You cannot expect people to take your opinion on Islam for serious, as long as you indicate in almost every reply that your knowledge on Islam is so small that it hinders you to form an opinion on Islam. That AL has more understanding of it is obvious, and expolains itself, considering her status. I myself will not excuse or justify myself for having learned about it by reading a lot of books, and having made many experiences in Muslim countries myself. I also do not intend to sit down for hours and write a book abit it, just for you. Far better books are already available, if only you would open your eyes. I have linked you to a list with recommended basic readinfs some weeks ago. Your private little fantasy that is running inside your head simply is not anything that could replace reality. And as we have seen in the past, you do not care for hints and links and suggestions, and often ignore them.

And then you complain that people do not spend the time with you anymore...???

Adapt or lose!

Skybird, again you dodge the question. What is the solution to the problem of Islam?

That indeed, is a good question. All that has been done so far haven't helped, the fundamental islamic movement is strong and growing stronger day by day.

So there's not much of options left. The last one is civil war.

Markus

Come on..everyone is the enemy?...Being a "Born Again" Christian, I don't look at people not "Born Again" as the enemy but as potential harvest...:)...Christianity teaches...if you read it yourself CB....which I suggest you do so you would know what the Bible really says and you would find throughout a resounding theme..."Love"....love does not demand it's own way...is longsuffering bears all in silence.It is written in the bible I read Christ came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance....at the end of the last book of the Bible it Clearly says...Let him that is holy be holy still,he that is whole let him be whole still,he that is evil let him be evil still.Free Will has been Gods command from the Begining to the End my friend."Born Again" Christians believe a way back to the grace of God was provided by Jesus Christ and any who "Choose" to pick up there cross and follow the way that was shown by Christ will have life eternal in paradise...Paid in full by blood and body of the Son of God Himself.....no one is supposed to force anyone and can't...it is a personal choice and those who choose another path are pitied not despised by Christians but hey...it is there choice...hell never closes.

Every tree is known by it's fruit so is a church or a person. You decide what is right.