Re: From rags to riches?
 

Sorry but I don't see how the existence of a wealthy upper class logically leads to the growth/expansion of the middle class. Perhaps you could briefly explain this logic to me?

Obviously the findings in that report no one minds to adress. what FDR and the time before him casued in effects is not so much important anymore. what the rwlaity is like in the present, say the last 10-15 years until today - this is what counts, I would think: or where the history of the last decades las led us to in the present.

Re: From rags to riches?
 

What scandium said.

Re: From rags to riches?
 

I would think that part of the answer would be that it's the wealthy that have the largest potential to invest in creating and maintaining businesses and industry.

The wealthy also require an entire host of business services that are owned and operated by the middle class.

The main point of this report is not asking whether we need a middle class or upper class, but rather asking if the American dream is a lie.

The report establishes that there are few chances that a child of poor parents will be rich when he grows up. It also shows that hard work is less and less rewarded. Cases of hardworking people working their way up from a poor background and being succesful are rare.

To quote Leonard Cohen "The poor stay poor, the rich get rich./That's how it goes./Everybody knows."

I grew up in the US and we never lived with the notion that "the American dream" meant you were guaranteed a life of luxury. It meant the potential of living comfortably. Like dreams, sometimes this comes true.

Historically, I think the notion of "the American dream" was more related to new immigrants who came to the US from oppressed lands. For example, amongst Yiddish speaking European Jews, the US was known as "der goldener medinah" - "the golden land." Often, such people got off at Ellis island, were forced to simplify their family names and wound up living in tenament slums in the lower east side, slaving in sweat shops - their children, too.

Yet, I personally know of numerous families whose great grandparents went through all of that yet they managed little by little to raise their standards, with their offspring and future generations living lives that are better than anything their original US ancestors ever knew of.

I also know of plenty of wealthy people who went flat broke for numerous reasons.

It's always been like that since people first started immigrating to this country. There has never been a guarentee of success, just a chance, sometimes a small chance, but that is far more than what was available in the countries they left.

My impression is that the first two post seem like outta the blue rants.... Do either of those two even live in the US? Reading newspapers and viewing from a far?

Re: From rags to riches?
 

This raises more questions than it answers. To begin with, where does their "wealth" come from and how do you know they invest it in business or industry? How do you know if they do that the business they create actually creates jobs in the US? Before you answer "of course it does" consider the number of jobs where little to no labour is required (due to automation) or that can be outsourced to other countries. I may for instance be extremely "wealthy" but derive it from goods produced in sweatshops in China and sold in the US thereby creating very few American jobs. Of course I employ many Chinese workers but how does that contribute to the American "middle class" that we're discussing?

Not to you specifically AL, but more to other points raised elsewhere in this thread, I can tell you for a fact that the middle class is shrinking. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "disappearing" but that trickle people feel isn't wealth trinkling down.

Fact: well-paying manufacturing jobs in the US are steadily disappearing as this sector of the economy continues to shrink to be replaced by a growing service sector. Although the service sector includes, in part, well paying service jobs its laregly made up of (and always has been) low-paying "McJobs" the bulk of which are in retail, fast food, etc. These jobs overwhelmingly offer little to no benefits and are largely part-time in nature. Thus, more and more Americans find themselves working multiple part-time jobs to try and equate full-time hours. For low wages and little or no benefits. This is the direct result of a number of factors all becoming more and more predominent in the US economy: the decline of the manufacturing sector and corresponding growth of the service sector; the increasing deskilling of labour; the increasing shift by employers to part-time hours; the increased prevalence of offshoring labour; and on and on. These are facts. And they do have an impact on generations growing up in this new reality and finding the deck increasingly stacked against them from the start.

Sorry but factory labor is NOT a middle class job.

Many traditional manufacturing jobs - the ones I referred to that have disappeared along with most of the manufacturing sector - were indeed middle class. They had real benefits, paid living wages, and were full-time jobs. They are the very heart of "blue-colar" middle class. And they are/were the antithesis of the service sector McJobs that have taken their place.

Perhaps if the unions would quit smothering these industries with some of their ridiculous demands, they wouldn't move abroad. Unions have outlived their usefulness. Have you seen what the United Auto Workers DEMAND in their packages?

That just the thing. Unions have used their power to get middle class wages and benefits for what have historically been lower class jobs. It is an artificial inflation of what constitutes the middle class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class

Rags over Riches....
 

1 Timothy 6
[1] Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
[2] And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
[3] If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
[4] He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
[5] Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
[6] But godliness with contentment is great gain.
[7] For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
[8] And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
[9] But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
[10] For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
[11] But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
[12] Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
[13] I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
[14] That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
[17] Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
[18] That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
[19] Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
[20] O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
[21] Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

One again for you Skybird...

The curse of man was to toil the ground all the days of his life and thorns and thistles will it yeild...Indeed...Be thankfull only the ground was cursed.Eat your daily bread with a humble heart.