I hope or think you were being sarcastic with this post Abe...I am convinced that Palestianins or whomever Islam extremesits call themselves, to try to exterminate Jews like they do with such lustful bloodthirstyness they are pretty much giving themselves over to total evil and probably don't even realize it anymore.It is a shame America does not fully realize this and lend more support to Isreal.I begin to understand more and more how God himself will never let Isreal fall into the hands of these people...

The situation in Isreal is like nothing I have ever known or read about in any history books....I don't think any country ever has suffered so much war and struggle....

You and your family are in my prayers Avon.

I will never understand how people can kill each other because they have different religions or different beliefs, or even different ethics for that matter. What does it matter?

The only thing religion seems to be good for is to give us reason to kill each other, as if our own inherient aggression wasn't enough. I thought humanity had learned it's lesson after so much blood was spilled for nothing during the Crusades. I guess not.

I stopped reading about Israel related politics and events a long time ago, I just don't have the stomach for it. Nothing ever seems to change. :(

Yada. Yada.

I want to kill people who try to kill me. We have much to talk about before this boils down to religion - at least from our side.
Why pick on the Crusades? Answer: that's what you were trained to say or picked up on the Internet. How about the conquest of Andalusia? (Why do I even bother!)

WWI wasn't a religious war.

WWII wasn't a religious war.

Vietnam wasn't a religious war.

The Cold War wasn't religious based.

There are numerous ancient conquests with bloodbaths that are similar in example.
Yet here you are!
"There's nothing new under the sun."
- King Solomon, Kohelet (Ecclesiastes 1:9)

First and foremost, it is a shame that so many in Israel do not realize this.
Thanks. ;)

the Crusades were a defensive effort to recapture land that was under christian control and then was taken over by attacking Islam, Excalibur. It was a military effort much the same like the reconquering of Spain and the liberation of Sicily, both of which were more successful, of course. That later european inner-politics interfered with the originally religious and military motioves of the crusades do not change their nature as a COUNTERattack. Don't let it appear as if it was a Western aggression - it was a counterattack after Islamic aggression.

It does not matter if you understand why people kill other people for questions of different belief - you nevertheless can get killed by someone beeing of different opinion than you are and whose faith tells him that all infidels must be overcome by every means available and that everything is excused if it is for the benefit of Islam's interests. Islam seeks for worldwide peace - which will have been acchieved not before the banner of Islam is displayed everywhere. that is the real meaning of "Islam means peace".

In Europe we have had many wars for religious questions as well. To give the wrong answer when you got asked "What is your religion" could have meant your death sentence. But different to Islam our evolution did not stop 12 or 14 hundred years ago. Where we went through different phases of more or less painful developement of philosophy and ethics and politics, Islam got stuck 14 hundred years ago, fought down any attempts from within to establish it's own traditions of philosophy, science, theology - and it denies until today that there is even a need to adopt to changing conditions, because it thinks of itself as the final goal and ending point of all developement and evolution and history. Thus, it argues, there cannot be any ongoing changes of history. From where Islam thinks it already stands it can only move away again from the optimum possible if accepting even the smallest changes and historical evolution. That's why it has not seen an real evolutionary history since the time of Muhammad. It still lives in the 7th to 9th century and has no intention to get out of that. "Und täglich grüßt das Murmeltier". the later superiority of the West in sicnece, technology, philosophy, economy, andn others, was the logical consequence of that backward-oriented mindset.

If Islam were right, I would have to wonder why we, as humans, nevertheless are designed with so much more potentials and abilities than what Islam allows. Bad humor by Allah, I suppose. Or something worse.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes." (SW3)

Hopefull signs of peace from Gaza!
 

Latest news:
Palestinean prayers were answered; Sharon will be released from hospital tomorrow!
:-j


@ Iceman:
You got it! I found the Palestinean reaction to the news about Sharon pathetic, but then - as always - the Palestinean reaction to any news never disappoints their worst critics, just as they never lose a chance to lose a chance for a better future.

@ Skybird:
Thanks for your remarks. Isn't knowing relevant history a great advantage?

My history is probably a little rusty, plus I've been up 26 hours, so please forgive any mistakes. I am tired, and I'm just trying to understand things. If I remember correctly the land was Islamic to begin with, and it was the Pope that called for a great crusade to recapture the holy land. Most of the countries signed up and sent troops marching across Europe to Jersulam (sp?) to reclaim it in the name of the church.

I suppose there isn't really any way of understanding it, that was a hell of a long time ago, and times were different. People were more fanatical about their religion back then I guess.

I think the "Children's" Crusade was the worst though. All those children marching off only to vanish and disappear into slavery, probably. :(

Avon, sorry if I offended you. I was just curious. I've never learned a whole lot about the situation with the two sides. I've tried to learn more, but my mind is not as sharp as it used to be and I get confused trying to figure out exactly who did what and why :(

Again, my apologies.

No, Exacalibur, after the brakedown and splitting of the Roman empire the place was left Christian (Byzanz). As was NorthAfrica and today's Turkey as well. It was not exclusively orthodox Christian, but Jews and many other sects also were present. But there was no Islam before it attacked after Muhammad's death into all directions, leading to the drive towards India, the conquering of Palestine and the fall of Byzanz, the conquering of NorthAfrica, the crossing of Gibraltar and the defeat of the Western Goths in Spain, followed by the drive deep into the heart of Central France.

But I already was at all this indepth some weeks ago:
http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/His...uranHadith.doc , and here the first pages of it.

Some days ago I posted a long reply here:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...171&highlight=
And here it is the third paragrapg dealing a little bit with Jerusalem.

I think I adressed the crusades at two or three other threads, too, but I am not sure. Maybe it all was just one thread.

Hopefull signs of peace from Gaza!
 

"You are forgiven, my son"
Just a rude crash history course:
The land which is now called Israel/Palestine used to belong to the Jews as long as 3000 years ago. A few hundred years before Christ (or Common Era) it became part of the Greek (Hellenistic) sphere of influence but kept some autonomy. Shortly before Christ it became part of the Roman Empire, again with limited authonomy. At the end of the first Century after a Jewish uprising, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, broke Jewish resistence and dispersed the Jews from what they called Palestina. In the 4th Century the Roman Empire converted to Christianity under Emperor Constantine. Jerusalem became a Christian centre and was considered a Holy City. When the Roman Empire weekened in the 8th century desert tribes - who were Muslim - attacked first Syria and then Palestina.
As you rightly remarked, the Crusades were an attempt to "recapture" Christian territory from a Muslim army. Your use of the word "recapture" excludes your statement that the country was "Islamic to begin with".
As usual, however, everybody with a claim "starts" history at the point where their claim is the strongest.

:) Hummmmmm, I wonder, if one day all the land given for the creation of Israel, will have to be given back or be given away?????

So far it looks to me as if Israel is slowly being given away.

I wouldnt give away any land. Palestinians should be moved out of west bank too. It would make a secure Israel. Arabs have land enough. Libanon should be also emptyed of palestinians, syrians, iranians and what the hell else there are. With those outsiders removed there would be an Cristian majority, possible co-operation with the Druze. It could even make another partner for west and Israel.

And you'd move these people... Where?

Gaza into Egypt
West Bank into Jordan
:88)

Didn't Jordan once kick the West Bankers out of their country? Something about formenting a rebellion?

Hopefull signs of peace from Gaza!
 

On the contrary, the territory of Israel has been growing since the original Division Plan that was adopted by the United Nations in 1947.
It expanded after the War of Independence with the ceasefire line of 1949 (also called the per 1967 official borders). These are Israels internationally recognised borders.
It further expanded after the "Six Day War" (June 5th-10th, 1967) when Israel occupied the Old City of Jerusalem, the Egypthian Sinaï desert, the West Bank territory of the Kingdom of Jordan and the Syrian Golan Highs.
Israel has never received international support for it's occupation. After the Peace accord ('Camp David') with Egypth (1979) Israel gave back the Synaï.
Last autumn Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip.
Israel is now building a so called "Security Fence" on or close to the pre-1967 borders, but including East Jerusalem and some West Bank settlements.
The main worry of the international community is that Israel is unilaterally drawing borders, which is contrary to modern international law and the UN charter. On the other hand Israel has hardly a "partner in peace" since the majority of the political forces in the Palestinean Authority - apart from some modern intellectuals - does not accept the existence of the State of Israel per se, which makes serious peace talks next to impossible.