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-   -   Virginia Submarine Discontinued (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=85464)

Torpedo Fodder 10-16-05 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kresge
For example, the F-22.
Factor in all the money spent to develop a new fighter, slash production to 20 fighters and then split the cost between those jets and they can scream about how an F-22 costs $300 million each.
On that note, I heard a rumor that due to spiraling cost projections, the Air Force may cut back the number of JSFs in plans to buy, and up it's procurtement of F-22s to the 380 it originally wanted, rather than the mere 180 it plans to buy at the moment.

As for the Virginia class, I'm not hedging bets on it's future one way or anyther. Nothing has been confirmed yet as to what they're actually going to do: it'll be 2012 before 10 boats are completed, and in Washington politics, 7 years is a very long time.

Kapitan 10-16-05 12:07 PM
terrorism also the weather and the fragile stock markets at the moment could spell the end for all the projects if america's oil production looses any more than 25% they country would be hit so hard it wouldnt even be able to maintain the force it main tains now.

this could be the start of a recession or a full scale stock market crash

in 2000 the dollar was $1.42 to the british £1 currently according to bloomberg (stock market channel) the dollar sits at $1.86 to the £1

in five years thats a big big rise my predictions can see the dollar going to $2.10 to the £1 with in the next 5 years and that in its self would be devastating for america, not to mention the debt it owes its own banks which resides at some where around $ 325 million (about average)

inflation has obviously risen oil prices and loads of other things have risen

so could this be the end of america?

no but america will be alot weaker in 10 years time if this carrys on and at current forecasts it seems it will only get worse !

Deathblow 10-16-05 06:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Dingo
2. Technology advances come so fast that it makes sense to invest in fewer subs, so you can replace them with newer ones when new/cheaper technology comes available.
That reminds me of something.

I read in a report that the initial proposals for the NSSN included some 60+ new and unapproven submarine technologies that could be investigated when choosing a final design. But to test all the technologies, every Virginia Class sub would be a custom model in some way, and none as modular, interchangeable, and easily upgradeable as they would have liked..... and thats not even considering the design flexibility that electric drive would permit.

... chances are, that by the time they got past boat 10, the 11th boat could be so different than the first boat that they might as well think about a redesign anyway...

the USN is probably just being honest with itself. By the time 2012 gets around they would be itching to go back to the drawing board anyway.... why make a 30 boat deal.

Bort 10-16-05 06:51 PM
Quote:
the USN is probably just being honest with itself. By the time 2012 gets around they would be itching to go back to the drawing board anyway.... why make a 30 boat deal.
Well... By the time we get done with the drawing board, our pockets will be devoid of money, the yards will be screaming for work if they haven't closed down already for lack of it, and the 688's won't be getting any younger. Oh, and while we're futzing around the chinese will be cranking out subs the way McDonald's cranks out burgers. We need plenty of Virginias and we need them to be built as efficiently as possible! :up:

Torpedo Fodder 10-16-05 09:27 PM
Quote:
in 2000 the dollar was $1.42 to the british £1 currently according to bloomberg (stock market channel) the dollar sits at $1.86 to the £1

in five years thats a big big rise my predictions can see the dollar going to $2.10 to the £1 with in the next 5 years and that in its self would be devastating for america, not to mention the debt it owes its own banks which resides at some where around $ 325 million (about average)
Why do people assume that the dollar losing value against foreign currencies is automatically bad for the US? A currency that is too high is also bad, as is the case with Canada: Our dollar rose 20 cents against the US dollar in the last 2 years, and that is having a negative impact on our exports to the US.

Lower value currency makes a nations exports more competitive against those of nations with higher currencies, for example, the dollar's decline has made American exports much more competive compared to European exports. Obviously a balance must be maintained, as the currency going too low is also bad, but consider this: there's a reason the Chinese government artifically kept their currency very low in relation to the US dollar until very recently.

Etienne 10-16-05 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torpedo Fodder
Why do people assume that the dollar losing value against foreign currencies is automatically bad for the US? A currency that is too high is also bad, as is the case with Canada: Our dollar rose 20 cents against the US dollar in the last 2 years, and that is having a negative impact on our exports to the US. .
A low currency is good for a country with a positve international trade balance. The US has the most negative of them all - They're probably the biggest importer of goods. A low currency makes those goods more expensive to buy... And since the US exports manufactured goods (IE, Cars) that are not easily obtainable from another country, a low currency doesn't favor them.

Canada is advantaged by a low currency because most of it's international currency income comes from the export of raw material. Much like a third world country.

And I'm affraid submarines will slowly go the way of the large surface warship. Except for the chinese, most of America's enemies are terrorists. They don't usually have submarines, or means of detecting an approaching F/A 18... A submarine would be overkill.

There's no way to build a numerous class of vessel AND have them up to tech. Technology is simply moving to fast for traditional military procurements methods. Five years between the drawin board and the first - or even fifth - launch makes the ship obsolete before it has left the yard! Well, ok, maybe not obsolete, but definetly not everything it could be.

Some form of modular design and standardized interface is probably the way to go in the long term. But unless American yards can suddenly spit out twenty ships a year, the days of 60 identical warships are gone. And it's not gonna happen - that'd be way too expensive.

Kapitan 10-17-05 01:36 AM
the 688's and 688I were almost compleately obsolete buy the 12th unit not only did the british trafalgar update but also the russian Akula knocked them off the boards

this is why russia only builds many types and few units

Psycluded 10-17-05 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapitain
the 688's and 688I were almost compleately obsolete buy the 12th unit not only did the british trafalgar update but also the russian Akula knocked them off the boards

this is why russia only builds many types and few units
And you categorically say this based on what evidence?

Edit to add a link to some evidence otherwise.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...russia/971.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlobalSecurity.org
The Akula is the quietest Russian nuclear submarine ever designed, and the low noise levels came as a surprise to Western intelligence. Russia claims the Akula is the quietest of its domestically built submarines and is fitted with acoustic countermeasure equipment. Noise reduction efforts include rafting the propulsion plant, anechoic tiles on the outside and inside of the hulls and possibly other measures such as active noise cancellation. Nonetheless, the American Improved Los Angeles class retained a decisive edge in silencing compared to the Akuka I. The Project 971A Akula II incorporated an improved double layer silencing system for the power train. According to Russian sources, this variant had noise emissions that were roughly the level of a basic Los Angeles and that of the Improved Los Angeles at slow speeds. At medium or high speeds the Improved Los Angeles design retains an acoustic advantage according to Russian sources. The Project 971 uses advanced sound insulation techniques that may not withstand Russian service conditions, and it may actually be noiser than earlier designs using more basic quieting technologies if poorly built or improperly maintained. The Project 971 is said by Russian sources to be at a distinct disadvantage in sensors, with a sonar suite that is roughly one-third as sensitive as the Los Angeles, able to track only two targets simultaneously (as opposed to the multiple target tracking capabilities of the American system).

XabbaRus 10-17-05 10:43 AM
Ah you have to giggle.

Poor lad.....

Fish 10-17-05 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapitain
terrorism also the weather and the fragile stock markets at the moment could spell the end for all the projects if america's oil production looses any more than 25% they country would be hit so hard it wouldnt even be able to maintain the force it main tains now.

this could be the start of a recession or a full scale stock market crash

in 2000 the dollar was $1.42 to the british £1 currently according to bloomberg (stock market channel) the dollar sits at $1.86 to the £1

in five years thats a big big rise my predictions can see the dollar going to $2.10 to the £1 with in the next 5 years and that in its self would be devastating for america, not to mention the debt it owes its own banks which resides at some where around $ 325 million (about average)

inflation has obviously risen oil prices and loads of other things have risen

so could this be the end of america?

no but america will be alot weaker in 10 years time if this carrys on and at current forecasts it seems it will only get worse !
US debt to the penny.

Current Amount

10/13/2005 $7,995,462,387,011.49

Psycluded 10-17-05 12:31 PM
The idea that submarines will be cut from the force a la Battleships is ridiculous. The QDR ongoing at the DoD has recommended to the Deputy Defense Secretary, Mr Gordon England, the following:

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...2065&C=america

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defense News.com
On Oct. 5, Marshall’s “Red Team” described its findings to England and senior military leaders. The team recommended several steps, including:

# Cut tactical air forces by 30 percent.

# Cancel the Navy’s DDX future destroyer.

# Delay the Army’s Future Combat Systems.

# Develop conventional theater ballistic missiles to rapidly strike “high-value targets.”

# Build more fast sealift ships and nuclear submarines.

# Develop a new long-range bomber.
Emphasis added for readability.

Torpedo Fodder 10-17-05 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapitan
the 688's and 688I were almost compleately obsolete buy the 12th unit not only did the british trafalgar update but also the russian Akula knocked them off the boards
Oh my god, that was so hilarious, it made my entire day! :rotfl: I know you wern't trying to be funny at all, but thanks anyway. On a more serious note, I would like to see you back up that claim with solid evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish
US debt to the penny.

Current Amount

10/13/2005 $7,995,462,387,011.49
Which translates to about 65% of it's GDP: As bad as that is, the US is not the worst offender in the G8 in regards to national debt: Italy's national debt is equal to 106% of it's GDP, and Japan's is equal to 154% ( :o) of it's GDP.

Deathblow 10-17-05 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torpedo Fodder
Which translates to about 65% of it's GDP: As bad as that is, the US is not the worst offender in the G8 in regards to national debt: Italy's national debt is equal to 106% of it's GDP, and Japan's is equal to 154% ( :o) of it's GDP.
Economics is so weird like that. I'm glad I'm not in the financial proffessions because money and prosperity is such a strange beast. Guess in the end it all really comes down to confidence.... the amount its citizens have in its government and the amount the rest of the whole has in its prosperity. :hmm:


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