vdr1981 is in his first day of vacation, so I think it is okay if I reply on his behalf. Yes please, post here links to v .33 to .36 :salute:

Sorry for the delay.
Here are the links:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/6z...eDarkWraith.7z

http://www.mediafire.com/download/ta...eDarkWraith.7z

http://www.mediafire.com/download/0e...eDarkWraith.7z

Thank you, much appreciated.

Testing now. First impression:

v33 (and earlier) No CTD
v35 (and later) CTD

The only remaining to complete the test is v34. Then we will know if we can do something to fix the bug. It does not look easy, there are many important changes in versions 34 and 35. But we will try it for sure :haha:

Anyone has IRAI v0.0.34 please? :subsim:

Because there is really slim chance that we can understand what is going on in TDW's py files I'm going to do a different approach regarding "Damaged TF/Convoy leader CTD" issue...

I'm going to edit OHII's GroupTypeDefs.cfg in order to get rid of large capital ships as a group leaders. Instead, group leaders anywhere in SH5 world will be hard, fast reacting warships, like destroyers and light cruisers.
According to some TWD's posts, this should also be beneficial to Hunter-killer groups and their tactics in general (large warships will hopefully act like that, not like destroyers anymore).

The file is rather large (almost 50.000 lines :o) but I've already done large part of the work in a past couple of weeks.

If this works, player will have enormously small change to damage group leader and therefore game will not crash and AI will continue to work. Even if player somehow manage to score a hit on convoy leader, she will most likely be instantly killed which is not problem because , in these scenarios, group leadership is transferred to the next unit (small and fast again):yep:

Sorry: many questions in a row :)

How do you switch convoy/hunter group leaders in GroupTypeDefs.cfg?
How switching to escort ships as convoy leaders is going to be beneficial to the game?
Aren't some side effects to be expected? I.e. all the escorts starting to chase any attacking enemy, and leaving capital ships totally unescorted, or even whorse capital ships behaving like escorts and exposing themselves to unnecessary risks?

:salute: Gap

How do you switch convoy/hunter group leaders in GroupTypeDefs.cfg?

This is the example of one convoy from mentioned file...Note that convoy leader is always first unit in convoy section (marked in red) and it controls tactics for both escorts and merchants...If leader merchant is damaged all tactics comes to a halt and the game CTD's some time after...If leader dies instantly , convoy leaderships is instantly transferred to 2nd unit in convoy section (marked in green) and so on....

It is the same for HK groups, the only difference is that in convoy section you'll find only warships there, instead of merchants like in regular convoy.

Aren't some side effects to be expected? I.e. all the escorts starting to chase any attacking enemy, and leaving capital ships totally unescorted, or even whorse capital ships behaving like escorts and exposing themselves to unnecessary risks?
Capital ships will act like that even now most of the time, maybe they are trying to ram submerged contact or something...Only TDW knows...To be honest, IRAI is so complex that sometimes is really hard to distinguish is AI really smart or really stupid...:)

I did recently an extensive search of TDW's posts from last few years regarding convoy leaders issue and I could't find anything to suggest that this shouldn't work . He even said in one post something about a "problem in campaign files which is responsible why is group leader in HK groups spawned in campaign always large capital ship"...

EDIT:
Oh yes, and one more thing...CTD will only occur if leading unit has warship/escorts under her control. If warship is alone or if there's only merchants in the group, CTD wont occur...

Thanks Vecko, I see now :up:
What about setting a dummy unit as leader of every convoy in game, with a 100% spawn probability? I mean a custom sea unit with no visible meshes (or meshes so small that they would hardly been seen), no damage/collision model, no engine sound, no armaments, no wake/smoke effects, etc, but equipped with just the basic controllers for making the game to recognize it as a ship. Lacking damage model, it couldn't be destroyed, thus providing a workaround to the infamous convoy leader ctd. The one side effect is that our crew, as well as other AI units, would still "see"/attack/report it, but in the scramble of a convoy attack this would be hardly noticed by the human player. Moreover, we could avoid the dummy unit to be used elsewhere in game, by creating two new "dummy" nations (one for Axis, and one for Allies) to be used in convoys/task forces, and by assigning the custom unit only to the roster of those nations.

How do you see it? :hmm2:

:O:

Out of jokes, any warship larger than a destroyer or a sloop shouldn't attack an enemy submarine in any other way than by shooting her cannons against it, if surfaced, or by deploying their planes against it, if they have any... A cruiser, a battleship or a carrier changing her course just for the gamble of ramming a submarine just makes no sense, considering the little chances of success and the high risks involved. Using an analogy with chess, it would be like jeopardizing one of your two almighty but quite cumbersome towers during a game opening (when many pieces are still on the board which can hamper a fast retreat), just for the sake of campturing one of the eight pawns of the opponent :-?

This is another matter, and the problem can be addressed by decreasing the spawn probability of capital ships in task forces already set in game, and/or by setting new taskforces with no capital ships in them. :up:

This sounds quite OK although situation may look little strange when dealing with smaller groups but, what a hell...:hmm2:
Dammit...I'm sure that TDW would be able to fix this issue with just a few entries in his py files... But instead we have to deal with 50.000 lines of code...:D
Anyway, your suggestion should probably work great with large HK and convoy groups...


I couldn't agree more but still, after 41 incarnation of TDW's IRAI , things can look rather strange sometimes...

Just recently, while I was attacking large British task force, a carrier spotted my periscope, turn swiftly and ramed my U-boat while I was watchig through the periscope wondering, what a hell is she doing?!:haha:
Enormously stupid , but terribly effective... :D

Okay, I can give it a go. Who knows, maybe we could set the dummy leader as neutral or as "environmental", for avoiding them to be attcked by AI units on either side. I don't even remember if environmental units are reported by our watch officer, and I hope we can set them so to be ignored by the hydro-guy.

Testing in single mission would ease our work. As far as you know, do escort AI routines work the same in missions as they do in campaign? and do the leader ctd bug also happen in single mission? :hmm2:


That must have been the "surprise factor strategy" that by then the Brits must have been working on :haha:

I don't think so because because Neutral units will ignore completely other coalitions if not attacked directly...Env units are reported both by sonarmen and watchmen as ships...

Yes


Just tested in a single mission... HK group AI is, let's say, equally "random" regardless of unit in command (large warship or something smaller). It seems that is completely irrelevant ... I don't like large warships tactics scripts but nothing we can do about it...


I'm done with my changes in GroupTypeDefs.cfg file (finally) , if you like I can upload it so you can review it and ask me some questions?

So what do you think? Should we set them like this, or escorts will act weirdly when defending a convoy led by a neutral or even environmental unit? :hmmm:

Okay. I think there are ways to prevent the game from showing an unit in SOAN/RM, even if it is not set as environmental. As for sound signature, IIRC there is a controller dealing with it. If the controller is missing, the unit is totally deaf, even to the AI operator. Lastly, I hope that if we make the dummy unit veeery small, our watch crew will have an hard time spotting it, due to its low profile. We could even try and make its meshes totally invisible, but I am afraid soon or later we would get a divide by zero error, or something like that, and instant ctd...

That's good news: testing in single mission will spare us a lot of time :up:

...nothing but hoping our "deus ex machina", TDW, to be back any time soon :D or...

Yep, I feel exactly the same... It is obvious that our approaches to the problem are just workarounds. Makes me to wonder if learning python wouldn't be easier. For sure there are plenty of resources about it on the web, but then one should learn how it is applied to SH's AI routines, and what TDW had in mind while he was working on IRAI :hmmm:

Sure :up:

Post a link and I will have a look into your files this evening or tomorrow morning :salute:

So what do you think? Should we set them like this, or escorts will act weirdly when defending a convoy led by a neutral or even environmental unit?
Definitely weird... The game is just not optimized for more then one coalition inside same group. You can test this in single mission too.

Lets say you've fired one torpedo to convoy with mixed units, hit one ship and stayed undetected...
What will happen then: If you hit allied ship, only red units will start evasive maneuvers and red escorts will start to search for you. Neutral unit will just continue normal course like nothing happened .

If you hit green neutral unit, exactly the same thing will happen, only opposite...

So you can see it's not only about rating and renown points...:yep:

Okay. I think there are ways to prevent the game from showing an unit in SOAN/RM, even if it is not set as environmental.
Forget about env units...It's not type of the ship that matters, only coalition...If I'm correct, env units are only neutral shipping with different shape. Set them to one of two remaining coalitions and SH5 will become whale hunter simulator...:O:

Here are the files...

[OHII v2.5 - GroupTypeDefs.cfg_8-9-10]

And this is from small readme file that I've created...

Changes in these files should effectively eliminate almost all chances for Damaged group leader CTD ever to occur without major changes regarding gameplay, convoy/groups in game appearance, number of ships, represented nations ect...

Designated convoy leaders leaders will always be 2-5 merchants/tankers (depending of convoy size) loaded with ammunition or fuel (internal cargo).

HK/TF designated leaders will be hard to hit destroyers and light cruisers.



The file(s) will also act(s) as compatibility patch for external cargo mod,

add until now almost nonexistent internal cargo option (which will match external cargo settings most of the time),

Randomize distance between units in groups from 800-1000m (I'm planing to increase this to 800-1100m, before was always 900)

Okay nevermind, I think I will put this workaround of mine in standby until your own patch is fully tested, and if it works as supposed there is no need for me to bothering on it anymore :03:

:up:

I am trying to follow your reasoning: since convoy leaders now are more than one single merchant, it is unlikely for all of them to be sunk, and even if this happens, due to their cargo, they would sink instantly, thus avoiding a instant ctd. Nonetheless, if we sink all the ships in a small convoy, there is still a little chance of ctd (if, afer sinking for a bad cohincidence all the ships in the leading group, the new leader(s) have not an exlosive cargo aboard. Is that correct?

Good! :up:

Ooo no..You will not escape so easily .:D As you can see , this "solution" will lower thew chances but it will not eliminate them completely.


Exactly...

You are right again...Those small convoys protected by 1-2 destroyers are my biggest concern . Actually , when I first time noticed this bug it was with small group of ships but at that time, I wasn't aware what's going on exactly...

How much time do you actually need to create one invisible "ghost ship" and to assign him/her (whatever) to red coalition , for a start?:hmm2:

EDIT:
Maybe you can use a liferaft for a quick testing?