The Tea Party should get the A-10s as a check and balance against the IRS. :D

Operating a fleet of them would still probably be cheaper than the taxes most TEA party members pay.

lol dont get me started... i could have paid cash for a Cessna with my tax liability for 2014 and spent a considerable amount of my winter zooming here and there for hundred dollar hamburgers :wah:

but your statement reflects the core point of the USAF Decision. Money.

I love the A-10, i think it is great.

I also love my truck... she's awesome. But if my truck were costing me $250 every time i made an attack run on the grocery store i can guarantee you she would have a firm retirement date and i would be considering my options.

this is the problem the USAF is having, it has to maintain the capability to make a certain number of explosions happen to bad guys for a specific dollar figure.

1. as airframes reach their service life it would be extraordinarily expensive just to build a from scratch A-10 with modern tech and what modern tech exists would only reduce per hour costs by a marginal percentage point. In fact, retooling the A-10 with modern tech might actually increase its operating costs as we start outfitting it with computers and smart missiles that cost a bunch of money to make

2. the per hour operating cost of the 40 year old airplane is several times that of it's new era counterparts

I understand why the A-10 is so popular... its a flying tank. It is meant to buckle down, put on its angry face and drive slowly through just about every 20mm, 30mm, 40mm, bowling ball, rock, sharp stick and curse word the enemy can throw into its flight path gliding right up to the enemy and Brrrting them in the face

Something like the Scorpion or a similar aircraft is more of a sniper and considers the fact that there's more than one way to skin a T-72, and with modern tech... if i can splash down munitions onto an enemy vehicle from 20 miles away for 1/6th the cost - why wouldnt I?

what about loitering? Compared to an aircraft like the A-10, planes similar to the scorpion loiter like skater punks at the seven-eleven.

Like the BUFF, i would love to see the A-10 Brrrt its way into another 40 years of service but it looks unlikely to happen. I would love to see the airforce switch to single-ply toilet tissue, reduce breakfast in bed staff, install higher priced vending machines in the officer's clubs, raise their golf course user fees, and sell Air Force Cookies in the Walmart parking lot to adjust their budget so they can keep this horse in the stable. But im guessing the stars and bars at the DOD who know a lot more about this stuff than I do have already made their decisions based on more information than i have through a news article and a couple of google searches.

on a long enough time line - every weapons system in the arsenal will be replaced.

Is it a shame that there are F-14Ds sitting in museum hangars with their wing spars cut in half?

yes

could we have made improvements to the tomcat to make it more awesome?

probably

But with the F/A-18 doing such a bang up job of filling the fleet air defense role AND strike role... why dip into the fuel and fireworks money to do it?

We had a old tractor on the ranch that was probably 20 years old when i was a kid. It did what it was supposed to do, it cut grass. it planed fields, it moved mud and towed stuff and i proudly learned the finer points of operating a steerable machine upon her seat... much as we loved it, as classic as it looked... given the parts and up keep on her it eventually just made better sense to put a new Kubota L Series in the shed.

Off-topic (a bit): My parents' tractor just celebrated its 50th year of service. Its Valmet 565 from 1965 but modified with cab from later tractor model (originally didn't have one) along with several smaller changes such as replacement headlights (because originals broke few years ago and spare parts are out of production).

On-topic: I confess being Warthog fan. Its nice airplane with quite nice cannon and provides nice punch. I however share concerns with others on its survivability against modern air defences.

I don't know is there real need for Scorpion unless it can be used as lower cost companion for F-35 Joint (or Junk, which ever you prefer) Strike Fighter. I'm afraid F-35 may not be affordable enough to be obtained in suffient numbers. Could Scorpion serve as COIN/low end supplement?

I think primarily Textron has it in mind that the international market is going to be the area where the jet sells best. this is evident in their pitching it to the USAF but mostly touring internationally.

given the direction drone warfare has taken in the last decade its hard to say that sending a man on a CAS run to pound the ground into submission from above is really as much a necessity as it may have been in the past.

a predator drone can spot infantry on the ground and execute an attack while being remotely piloted from the other side of the planet.

Still, if i were infantry shooting it out with advancing enemy troops, it would make me feel a bit better knowing that any second now a flesh and blood flyboy is going to swoop in and lay waste to my foe

Im not sure what the loiter time on a UAV is upon reaching target area... but im betting it isnt 4 or 5 hours

Actually Holly loiter times Batman! I'll just lead you read the stats. Third paragraph us of the most interest. Based on that I'd say with only internal and weapons it'd still have a very solid 6-7 hour over combat area loiter.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...craft/mq-9.htm

The A-10 could have its live extended the real reason for the brasses desire to retire it is because that's the only way with current budgets to afford the F-35. Still that fact not withstanding it is an old airframe and is it really worth rebuilding or better to keep the least worn examples and retire the others. Currently there are 235 on active service between active guard and reserve units.

I'll tell you what is a shame...

no more Douglas Skyraiders motivating the enemy to advance in another direction, the aircraft is obviously obsolete... but if i were an aviator in the Vietnam Era, Close Air Support in the skyraider would have been my choice of assignments

Just a bit off topic, I kind of think what a odd looking air plane, almost a tail/engines of one aircraift, wings of another and a nose of a F15. Since I do not know air design/dynamics, can one explain why this shape?

You can unsubscribe I recon as I don't agree with anything that your saying and you don't agree with anything I say so what's the point? :salute:

I will tell you that I dislike it when people question my experiences in particular the ones that required me to make personal sacrifices be away from my loved ones for months and be around people that where trying to kill me on a daily basis so let's be careful from this point foward what we say otherwise I'll make use of the ignore list.

Most things we discussed have nothing to do with agreements, but with facts.
You claimed some things that are simply not true, for a fact.
You don't have to believe me, but some research for your own sake might be a good idea.
Also, as I said earlier, I had questions that you simply ignored...

Oh please, spare me the drama, will ya? :haha:
First of all, these sacrifices you mention have been of your own choice, no one forced you, so don't expect some sort of special treatment, hoping to find a way out after someone calls you out on some stuff you claim, this is really low, I gotta say.

Second, I do indeed question your experience, since you talked about "radar guided Mavericks" (which don't exist).
Also, using a Mavericks optics as the poor man's FLIR is a thing of the past, which again makes me question your experience/and or how relevant your experience might be today (it sounds way outdated).

If you make false claims and even make up fantasy Mavericks, at least be experienced enough to stand up for it once questioned and don't hide in silence - which is something I dislike - even on the internet.

That is all I have to say.

Congrats on catching my honest mistake on my early moring error on th. AGM65 I aware theres no radar guided version that was an honest brain fart.

Congrats on displaying your true self as well.

Congrats on the ignore list add now we can enjoy Subsim and not get in each others way.

Ah yes, more excuses and on top a nice load of butt-hurt.
You could have simply answered my post above and explained yourself, instead you tried the "I am a veteran who made sacrifices, I must not answer for anything I write" way out.
I am not the bad guy here because I don't fall for it, don't even try blaming me here.
And "my true self"? Are you kidding me? I've always been straight forward when I smell BS and I sure won't apologize for that.

But sure, go ahead and put me on that special list because your pride is untouchable.
We all make mistakes or sometimes lean to much out of the window with some claims because we thought we know better, it happens, but all it needs to fix it is a "well I was wrong I guess" and no one ever talks about it again.
But hey, your call, put me on that list if you need to.

Wow chaps, ok, time out. :timeout:

First off, Stealhead isn't a walt, ok? He's done time on the line with the BUFFs, he knows his stuff. I trust him. I don't know when he came off the line, or whether he's still on it, but if I had to guess I'd say that he might not have seen the new Mavs come in or the TGP.
My gaff on the Mav sight was a recollection from a book from the First Gulf War, but you're quite correct in that with the new(ish) TGP the Hog is fully capable of night-ops, although let's not forget that it was not designed that way initially. This has only been a post-Cold war development, so in a way you're both right. In fact, I might be incorrect here but I think it was part of the upgrade program from A to C which brought in the TGP.
I think we've both had a few crossed wires here which have lead to some jumping to conclusions and failures thereafter.

The thing is, even if you upgrade the Hog to new weapons systems and targeting systems, you're still going to face airframe issues in the long run. This isn't like the B52 which rarely pulls high G maneuvers, the A10 is designed for terrain following attack runs, as well as high altitude stand-off bombing, so the airframe is going to take a fair bit more punishment and wear and tear. The F15 fleet is facing the same problem, which the exception of the more modern E variants. The Bones will be next after that, and the BUFFs will sadly likely follow after. We're in the middle of switching between generations here, so there's going to be a fair bit of switching around in aircraft and technology. There's a fairly large number of aircraft in the USAF and USN inventory which were designed and produced in the 1970s, and there's only so much you can upgrade in the basic airframe before you have an inferior craft.

The A10 is approaching that tipping point, because its opponents have gotten better and smarter. Against the likes of Daesh it's fine, a little overkill in fact since you're using the GAU-8 against pick-up trucks, although the cost effective ratio is something to be questioned, but more on that later. Against the likes of the PRC or Russia though, the A10 is going to face problems and that big gun at the front is not going to help against modern MBTs. The best use these days for the GAU-8 is in the CIWS.

Besides, this may be the last generation which is composed of more manned aircraft than unmanned. I'm not sure how to feel about that. :hmmm:

Anyway, in short, the A10 is a fantastic piece of kit, I don't think anyone here is going to argue that in its time for doing what it was doing, it was damn good at it. But there's a reason that the RAF is not still using EE Lightnings or Gloster Meteors, and it's not just because we probably can't afford them, but it's because their time came and went, and so it is with the A10. As much as we all love the Hog, it's high time she went out to pasture.


Besides, we all know that at least a hundred will wind up at Davis-Monthan. The USAF doesn't throw anything away. :03:

EDIT: A quick Google map search shows that there IS a couple of dozen Hogs at Monthan already ;)

I thought we were going to do everything with drones now?

I left A-10s in 1999 as a permanent member of an A-10 support squadron I did work with them later on deployments the C came into service about the time that I left the Air Force.And for the record I was an aerospace ground equipment journeyman. What we did was maintain all of the ground power equipment that aircraft use while on the ground from generators to bomb lifts that's what we did. However in my job you routinely worked directly with pilots and other of the various types of support troops. I've been personally thanked by many pilots including Hog pilots for getting a pesky unit going that was needed to prepare the aircraft for a sortie. So it is what it is I suppose. I never once claimed to be the "A-10 God of mighty knowledge" merely that I did serve in direct support of them. If I where some layer why not claim to have been a munitions tech or hell a pilot?