SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Gold price manipulated since longer than assumed?

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Quote:

There is no way to generate value out of nothing. It's an illusion, and it destroys us like the happy dreams of constant heavy drug abuse destroys the consumer. But he grins until the bitter end.

Creating new technologies is creating value from nothing.
Software you using is the same...value from nothing - an idea.
It is not about exchanging relatively fixed amount of goods for relatively fixed amount of metal anymore.
We would have value rise of gold coins till it was impractical to use them again.

Wealth is not about how many gold bars you own anymore.
Not saying that current system is perfect but gold based one is crazy...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 2181165)

There is no way to generate value out of nothing. It's an illusion, and it destroys us like the happy dreams of constant heavy drug abuse destroys the consumer. But he grins until the bitter end.

Of course you can, say for example you get some muppet like Beck to hype the value of gold and get some mises fanatics to further spread the gospel of hype then you can generate a completely false value which doesn't really exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MH (Post 2181189)

Ideas you newly deveklope and form into inventions, base on intellctual work invested before, and the fruits of intzellectual work done before. They do not come form nothing. And you need financial wealth to materilaise the idea you had, to make profit from it. Like the farmer needs seeds in spring to be able to harvest in autumn - and save some for the seeds he needs again next spring.

Fee market bartering is nopt about "fixed" prices as yoiu suggested above. It is about prices freeely negotiate by market participants.

Handling heaps of gold, and how impractical that is. If there were just one ton of gold in a country, the ammount of gold you would need to carry to buy a house, would be almost microscopic. Anyhow, nothing speaks against storing yopur gold bars in a safe place, say a bank, and be given a receipt for that - as long as the bank does and miust store all that gold in full material volume all the time. Originally, that is where banknotes are coming from! But then the other of the two archsins of modern fincial corruption was implemented: the fracional reserve system that allows banks to not store all gold given to them by the owner, but just a fraction of it, trading with the major part of it. I have explained that problem in a thread two or three weeks ago. Fractional reserve banking systems and FIAT paper money without true commodity-coverage are the death sentence for any responsible, reasonable fiscal system. Because on the very first occasion you allow a bank to not withhold all material value given to it for storage against a paper receipt, means that this bank already is bancrupt because if people come and want back all their store gold, the bank cannot meet the demand.

So you can use paper banknotes as long as there is not more currency units represented by them as there is in real commodity, saved and stored away in some secure location. The sin is if you use this system - and then intruduce a fractional reserve system. Then you know that you have let the ghosts out of pandora's box.

Money is like any commodity, good, item, that people are interested to trade with or to barter. Prices for these items must be allowed to be freely negotiated. A need for FIAT money of any form does not exist except for politicians who will always dislike that there are unsurpassable limits defined by a solid money to their unlimited spending fantasies. It is always the kings, the feudal elites, later the governments and politicians in republics and the fans of socialist planned economies that have corrupted and ruined currencies and thus destroyed economies. And they all bred corruption and plundering en masse.

Central Banks are not needed. State control of currency is not needed. Fractional reserve banking is not needed. Each of these three alone already is utmost destructive. Together, they are apocalyptic.

What states need to do is to be as little and small as possible, to tax and to spend almost nothing, and to be as non-existing as can be achieved. Democracy always must lead to socialism and planned economy and bureaucratic totalitarianism. The opposite to democracy - is freedom.

If everyone got into a car accident on the same day then insurance companies would collapse.

We could adopt the PNG traditional currency of pigs. 20 pigs for a good bride. It takes a set investment in time and feed to get a saleable pig.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak (Post 2181286)

We could adopt the PNG traditional currency of pigs. 20 pigs for a good bride. It takes a set investment in time and feed to get a saleable pig.

Bacon eh....?:hmmm:

Brilliant!

What about thick sliced pepper bacon?

Send 5 slices to Neal for your donation.:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee (Post 2181297)

Bacon eh....?:hmmm:

Brilliant!

What about thick sliced pepper bacon?

Send 5 slices to Neal for your donation.:D

Actually, bacon (I mean "Speck")was used as a currency for sure. It was carried in more or less big pieces, and depending on how much you had to "pay", an according slice or piece was cut off. When they found out that that was impractical, they started to replace bacon with metal, and hacked off pieces from the bars. It was called "Hackgeld", therefore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee (Post 2181297)

Bacon eh....?:hmmm:

Brilliant!

What about thick sliced pepper bacon?

Send 5 slices to Neal for your donation.:D

Has to be seen to be believed :)

Pork currency? That would add truth to the phrase.. "Bringing home the Bacon":O:

Its all fine and well till someone adulterates the pork and lowers the value, then you have the speculators and hoarders who want to manipulate the market and set up piggy banks where they start a market in possible future piglet options, Peta get in on the act and want bacon kept on the trotter.
Then of course the muslim horde takes over like they always planned and move the currency to ovine from porcine, at which point the welsh get upset about the increasing price of sex and finally everyone sits down and agrees that the paper deal isn't that bad after all, apart from a few mises miseries who now insist that beef can be the answer to all the problems

Funny how often the participants of the "free market" tend to prefer a planned economy - fixed prices. Last year alone in Germany, it was discovered that for years prices have been manipulated for sugar, elevators, wallpapers and (most shockingly to us :o) beer.
But of course it's all the fault of regulations, the state and some dubious "socialism" :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin (Post 2181459)

You distort it, and I think you know it. Yoiur criticism of the price manipoulation for sugar coffee etc is not done by people wanting a free market (=captialists), but is done by people wanting monopolies. And monopolism and capitalism are antagonistic, no matter whether you consider free market versus states, or free market versus lobbyists.

Its indeed is strange that such distortions are attacked not as monopolism but as as "capitalism", when they appear in an economical context where secret cartel building (which also is a violation of the idea of free markets) takes place. But when monopolies are built in the name of socialist stuff or giovenrment rtegulation (which in the end is one and the same), then the same distortion is welcomed and defended as a achievment although it is at the cost of eroding the basis of everybody's wealth.

Strange that is becasue a true caspitlaist - knows the value of solid, healthy money, and the need for a free market as a precondition. States and socialists do not know that. Monopolists in the end are eneimies of freedom and free markets. And the state is the biggest monopolist of all, having the monopole to plunder and to legitimnate itself, and having the monopole to make laws and rules that regulate all others while the state has the freedom to exclude itself from these rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tchocky (Post 2181281)

If everyone got into a car accident on the same day then insurance companies would collapse.

But if a meteor hits Earth, they would not need to care.

Serious, you get the very same reply by me that you have already gotten from me some weeks ago on the same issue. I just edited the typos out of it, and changed a phrase here and there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

When you have a person going to the bank and paying in 1000 bucks, and the bank is allowed to hold only one tenth of that in real reserves, and pay out the other 9/10 as new credit, then you create more money, new money, from nothing. Which devalues the money in circulation. Which essentially is inflation. Because: the bank gives that money as a credit to a new debtor, who uses it to invest into something, do usual bank deals, and pays at least major parts of it to other banks - who again hand out most of that money to other debtors, because it must hold only one tenth of that sum as reserve.

If you do not see that as an essential and vital problem, then nothing will ever make you waking up: Somebody paid 1000 bucks to bank as credit, and the bank uses that to increase the amount of money in existence - WITHOUT THAT NEW ADDITIONAL MONEY REPRESENTING ANY NEWLY CREATED MATERIAL VALUE. And the ratio is intimidating:

After the first paying-in (forgive my probably inapt English here, I am not familiar with precise business English and the German terminology probably would not help here) by a customer of let'S say 1000 bucks, the bank can hand out nine tenths of that money to other customers, as new credit, because it must hold only a fractional reserve. That would be new money worth 900 bucks. Comparing assets and liabilities, the amount of money in circulation (digitally or paper, it does not matter), has grown by 900 bucks.

But it does not end here. The debtor of the bank who has taken those 900 bucks as a credit, uses it to mind his businesses and in the end the money ends on banking accounts of other banks, employees he paid, bills he paid, and so forth. These banks again can use this money they got to just keep one tenth in reserve, and hand out nine tenths of it again. From 900 bucks, the bank hands out 810 bucks, and only keeps 90 bucks in reserve. Adding together the increase in money from the first (900) and second (810) iteration of this game, the original, materialistically value-covered 1000 bucks, have grown to a total of 2710 bucks. But only 1000 bucks of that sum is real value. The remaining 1710 bucks are - "uncovered", value-less. They are FIAT indeed. 1000 bucks have been blown up to 2710 bucks. And that devaluation of money. And we have had just two iterations here! In reality, things do not stop here.

So now go to the next iteration, and do your math.

I do not think you know what fractional reserve banking really means in its desastrous consequences, since you ignore all its destructive implications that some wiser men have warned of already 50, 70 years ago, and earlier. And the basis of these men'S thinking already has been laid out decades before them. What you know is the colour of sand when the head sticks deep in it. One should rememeber that none of the established economic schools was able to warn in time of the fiscal disaster becoming apparent in 2007, and that none of these schools has forseen and predicted correctly the general trend of the erosion of the currency and economy from the 1970s on - none except one, the so-called "Austrians". And not only did modern Austrians almost completely rang the alarm bells before 2007, but earlier Austrians predicted these developments already in the 1930s and 40s - and explained clear and straight why these developments would be unavoidable. It seems that is more competence and healthy reason and insight into human psychology, than any of the recent years' and decades' Nobel prize winners in economics can show up with. The only Austrian ever given the Nobel, was Hayek - and to minimize that recognition for highly unpopular, reasonable concepts at the same time and to give politics an alibi for why to ignore him after that like they ignored him before the Nobel,, he had to share it with another guy, a socialist, who represented exactly the opposite in thinking and argument than Hayek, and supported insane spending frenzies and money devaluation.

In 2009, Germany was close to a bank run, and Merkel had to tell a now famous lie: that the state would guarantee all private savings on bank accounts, of all people in Germany. That there simply is not sufficient "money"to allow the paying out of all savers who want their "value" back from the bank that just a tiny fraction of savings could be payed back to their former owner, she did not say. Savers do not know the contexts and backgrounds, and believed it. The mioeny was left were it was. Cold progression in 2013 costed German private citizens 53 billions of their total savings, money that was stolen from them intentionally by and deliberately by the state, by implementing according policies via the ECB.

And it does not stop there.

What we see with in this precious paper money and fractional reserve system today - in reality simply is the biggest predatory raid in the history of mankind. In its dimension, it is without precedence in human history.

And what is all that paper money, in the end? Only a very tiny fraction of it still represents a material value. The lions share of it, the overwhelmingly biggest share of it: is debts, Value that is not there. Is nothing. And this tiny remains of real value, gets constantly eroded further. By printing more money.

Brilliant.

At the same time, due to the Cantillon effect, real property and value gets constantly transferred from the bottom to the top of the communal hierarchy. Here is where Penguin and me maybe would meet and share the same opinion in our criticism (saying that by the image I have of him). In a nutshell, the Cantillon effect means that new printed money that gets injected into the system, gets injected at the top of the banking industry. The first hands using it have a price advantage in using it to buy stuff, becasue when there now is more money, that money ciruclating is devalued accordingly, and prices will adapt by rising. But that takes time, and in the beginning, the first hands can buy with devalued money - but for the old prices. The next hands using that money, already have to deal with slightly adapted prices, and ther third hands will deal with a market where prices have adapted even more. And so the effect tickels through the hierarchic pyramide, from top to bottom. When the new money reaches the level of the ordinary man in the street, prices have adapte din full, and Jiohn Smith has slightly more money, but also has to pay for higher prices, nullifying the effect for private consummation. At the top of the pyrmade however, real material welath and püroperty has been added to the already existing ones, for the firts buyers were able to avoid the effects of rising prices and thus for some time had more buying power than by the monbey'S value they indeed had. It is a time-limited money cheat, so to speak. It erxplains why all these fincial stimulus programs to stimulate porivate consumeerism by injecting newly printed money into the system, have so little and most of the time no lasting effects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin (Post 2181459)

What is funny about Skys "free market" dystopia is that he rails against monopolies yet he uses examples which were monopolistic as his ideal, like wise with the freemarket aspect, his ideal examples were exceptionally protectionist markets, he rails against monarchy feudalism and government yet picks prime examples of those systems as his dream
(plus those with a very unhealthy reliance on slavery to sustain them).
He complains of corruption, yet has dream examples where corruption despotism nepotism and warped patronage were leading factors in their operation.
To top it all , in order to achieve his anti government and anti big government and anti regulation dreamworld he is going to have to create a government whose size and scope absolutely dwarfs that of any empire which has so far existed.
It appears like the whole ideology driven concept being put forward makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but surely that cannot be the case:hmmm: